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Transgender issues

  • Context: Civil Rights 
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SUMMARY

This discussion centers on the societal and political challenges faced by transgender individuals, particularly in the context of recent U.S. administration policies. Key issues include the recommendation of 'exploratory therapy' for children with gender dysphoria by the HHS and the Supreme Court's decision to uphold the transgender military service ban. Participants express concerns about the oversimplification of gender identity, the conflation of gender with choice, and the impact of media portrayals on public perception. The conversation highlights the need for a nuanced understanding of gender beyond binary classifications.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of gender identity and expression
  • Familiarity with U.S. political and legal frameworks regarding LGBTQ+ rights
  • Knowledge of media influence on public perception of social issues
  • Awareness of psychological concepts related to gender dysphoria
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the implications of the HHS's recommendation for 'exploratory therapy' on transgender youth
  • Examine the legal history and current status of transgender military service in the U.S.
  • Explore the impact of media representation on societal attitudes towards transgender individuals
  • Investigate psychological perspectives on gender identity development and dysphoria
USEFUL FOR

This discussion is beneficial for activists, policymakers, mental health professionals, and anyone interested in understanding the complexities of transgender issues in contemporary society.

There is always a choice, is there not?

No choice implies no agency, no free thought ie no freedom of choice ( has monotheism gone wrong? )
--> Are we are all victims only of our genes and environment, thus share no responsibility
Where is the empowerment that such a decision entails, as suggested from the activist proponents, if not by choice?

I do think if was was going to go trans-gen, I would have to insist that I would have to own the decision to do so, rather than leave it up to another to decide for me, or blame others who, or some proposed framework that, made me do it, just to keep my sanity intact, if not for the reason that the decision would be for the rest of my life.
 
I believe, like most conflicts, this is a matter of control. When you have 2 sexes, the segmentation is clear and culture/society can be controlled. When you have a spectrum, it all breaks down.
That would certainly explain why Republicans, especially in the current political climate, hate the "concept" so much!
 
There is always a choice, is there not?

No choice implies no agency, no free thought ie no freedom of choice ( has monotheism gone wrong? )
--> Are we are all victims only of our genes and environment, thus share no responsibility
Where is the empowerment that such a decision entails, as suggested from the activist proponents, if not by choice?

I do think if was was going to go trans-gen, I would have to insist that I would have to own the decision to do so, rather than leave it up to another to decide for me, or blame others who, or some proposed framework that, made me do it, just to keep my sanity intact, if not for the reason that the decision would be for the rest of my life.

So, you think it's a choice? That people choose to be transgender?
 
What about people:
  • [...]
  • who are incestuous,
  • who are pedophiles,
  • who are serial killers?

I have a suspicion that, if not connected to transgenderism as such, these three concepts especially are directly connected to sex in some way.

EDIT: And certainly control in others.
 
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A lot has transpired since I began to compose my thoughts below. So here goes.

The Human brain is a complex and mysterious thing. We cannot know for sure what, why, or how others are experiencing unless you have done so yourself.

We only have external clues of feelings and attitudes of others. But if we look seriously into these topics, we might gain some understanding.

Culture has defined many attitudes and roles that we possess, for example, a boy should not cry, a girl should be a nurturer;, the usual male, female characteristics. But boys do cry, and girls may not care, but society exerts its influence to maintain traditional roles, and people have acquiesced, at least until some openly challenged these norms and have gained support from the enlightened.

“We’re all different in many ways and alike in many ways and special in some sort of way.”​

― Larry Kramer, The Normal Heart & The Destiny of Me

It seems to me that gender identity issues share some of the same elements as the current masculinity crisis, that is, trying to be true to yourself. Some are trying to reconcile what society says about you versus what you feel about yourself. I understand that this crisis is so strong that men are committing suicide rather than deal with the conflict between their feelings and what society is currently telling them.

I found this article of value in trying to understand the masculinity crisis.
 
My guess would be that the changes become apparent during puberty. But again: what do I know?
Perhaps we have distinction on when choice is made.

I would think that someone can feel that the body they possess does not reflect who they think they should be. When and why this happens is surely complicated. Feeling that way is not the choice.

The choice comes when they may announce, or not, to the world that they are making the change.
Up to that point no one knows their wishes.
There may be many times that the individual will self reflect; would this be the case for people making the change much later then in their teens - a delayed choice to transgender.

Puberty blockers have been used for some 40 years as a treatment for 'problems' that crop up during puberty. The dis-allowance of this treatment is probably a knee-jerk reaction from those that do not understand, nor wish to understand. The T community also bears some of the responsibility in that they allowed activists to control the agenda, exploit them as a group, attempt to shut down discussion, and labelled anyone with questions as bigoted.

I may be biased, but if someone is feeling ill at ease within their body and wish to change, the best time to do so would be in their youth so that male/female secondary sexual characteristics do not overlap.

One thing to watch out for is the misuse of this treatment against someone's will as surely as hell has happened whenever there is the possibility for exploitation at the clinical level, and at the sex for hire level.
 
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I found this article of value in trying to understand the masculinity crisis.
There’s a modern belief that talent or effort can carry anyone to the top. It’s a myth that’s especially harmful to men

I did not read all the article.
They are admitting the myth ( of our western society ), at least for the vast majority of males ( and females )
 
I may be biased, but if someone is feeling ill at ease within their body and wish to change, the best time to do so would be in their youth so that male/female secondary sexual characteristics do not overlap.
I don't know enough about this stuff to be able to tell others what they "should" do. But as a voter I would be all in favour of voting for a government that doesn't interfere, and allows those people going through this to do their own research, to reach out to medical and psychological experts and to decide for themselves what path to take.
 
Everyone is constantly telling everyone what they should do. That's all that society is.

It's just continuous, low-grade coercion. Legal prohibitions are threats with violent enforcement mechanisms. People with guns will come to your home and kill you if you don't do what you are supposed to when you are supposed to.

Even low-stakes social expectations carry implicit sanctions: conform or face exclusion, disapproval, and diminished opportunities.

Accept it. Suck it up or die (socially or literally).
 
Everyone is constantly telling everyone what they should do. That's all that society is.
Some people and ideologies more so that others.

People that are socially liberal are accepting of people's differences, as long as people aren't discriminating. People that are socially conservative seem to have a very narrow view of how people should act and behave. Some take it upon themselves to judge others, to act out and tell others how they should behave, put people down for being gay or trans, name calling, refusing to provide services for them, disowning them, kicking them out of the house, calling them sinners etc. Some even then look to use laws to make gay marriage illegal, to make it illegal to be gay etc.
Those people discriminating, then get a back lash from socially liberal people looking to defend and protect the minorities that they are attacking.
 
They are admitting the myth ( of our western society ), at least for the vast majority of males ( and females )

That's the problem. It is no longer to be expected that hard work and talent will pay off. Luck and who you know have become very important.

Social media may tell you that anybody can be a billionaire. Sure, there are a lot of successful people, but not enough opportunities to go around. This leaves many men struggling to fulfill their perceived roles or aspirations. A frustrating situation that can lead them to depression and sometimes suicide.

All humans are equal in that they can freely pursue that to which they aspire, but they are not created equal in their ability to succeed.
 
Perhaps we have distinction on when choice is made.

I would think that someone can feel that the body they possess does not reflect who they think they should be. When and why this happens is surely complicated. Feeling that way is not the choice.

The choice comes when they may announce, or not, to the world that they are making the change.
Up to that point no one knows their wishes.
There may be many times that the individual will self reflect; would this be the case for people making the change much later then in their teens - a delayed choice to transgender.

Puberty blockers have been used for some 40 years as a treatment for 'problems' that crop up during puberty. The dis-allowance of this treatment is probably a knee-jerk reaction from those that do not understand, nor wish to understand. The T community also bears some of the responsibility in that they allowed activists to control the agenda, exploit them as a group, attempt to shut down discussion, and labelled anyone with questions as bigoted.

I may be biased, but if someone is feeling ill at ease within their body and wish to change, the best time to do so would be in their youth so that male/female secondary sexual characteristics do not overlap.

One thing to watch out for is the misuse of this treatment against someone's will as surely as hell has happened whenever there is the possibility for exploitation at the clinical level, and at the sex for hire level.
Too fast there. I liked the conclusion but I obviously need to read more thoroughly here.

EDIT: And now you brought "sex for hire" into it all. You're certainly not making this easy! :)
 
Perhaps we have distinction on when choice is made.

I would think that someone can feel that the body they possess does not reflect who they think they should be. When and why this happens is surely complicated. Feeling that way is not the choice.

The choice comes when they may announce, or not, to the world that they are making the change.
Up to that point no one knows their wishes.
There may be many times that the individual will self reflect; would this be the case for people making the change much later then in their teens - a delayed choice to transgender.

Puberty blockers have been used for some 40 years as a treatment for 'problems' that crop up during puberty. The dis-allowance of this treatment is probably a knee-jerk reaction from those that do not understand, nor wish to understand. The T community also bears some of the responsibility in that they allowed activists to control the agenda, exploit them as a group, attempt to shut down discussion, and labelled anyone with questions as bigoted.

I may be biased, but if someone is feeling ill at ease within their body and wish to change, the best time to do so would be in their youth so that male/female secondary sexual characteristics do not overlap.

One thing to watch out for is the misuse of this treatment against someone's will as surely as hell has happened whenever there is the possibility for exploitation at the clinical level, and at the sex for hire level.
I must admit I think it may all have gone too far. Then again I'm old and way behind. I must admit, though, that I still don't like the word "choice" in this context.
 
Perhaps we have distinction on when choice is made.

Ugh, There's that word again.

I would think that someone can feel that the body they possess does not reflect who they think they should be. When and why this happens is surely complicated. Feeling that way is not the choice.

If not you don't "feel it" how on on Earth would you ascertain it?

The choice comes when they may announce, or not, to the world that they are making the change.
Up to that point no one knows their wishes.

And again with the "choice".... I'm not saying I downright disagree with you mind. Still, I really just don't like that word. And it takes a lot of thought and a lot of empathic thinking to not hurt anyone's feelings.
 
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Everyone is constantly telling everyone what they should do. That's all that society is.

It's just continuous, low-grade coercion. Legal prohibitions are threats with violent enforcement mechanisms. People with guns will come to your home and kill you if you don't do what you are supposed to when you are supposed to.

Even low-stakes social expectations carry implicit sanctions: conform or face exclusion, disapproval, and diminished opportunities.

Accept it. Suck it up or die (socially or literally).
Even if you're being a little sarcastic or have a gleam in your eye there's a lot of truth there.

EDIT: Almost thought I answered @gleem using the word gleem. I was about to say "See what I did there!". No such luck though. :)

EDIT2: And the word is gleam, so it all just crashed and burned.
 
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I'm sure we can all agree this is a heavy and complicated subject and discussing it is a little like venturing into a minefield with skies strapped on.
 
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Everyone is constantly telling everyone what they should do. That's all that society is.

It's just continuous, low-grade coercion. Legal prohibitions are threats with violent enforcement mechanisms. People with guns will come to your home and kill you if you don't do what you are supposed to when you are supposed to.

Even low-stakes social expectations carry implicit sanctions: conform or face exclusion, disapproval, and diminished opportunities.

Accept it. Suck it up or die (socially or literally).

You forgot cancellation and ghosting! ;)
 
And again with the "choice".... I'm not saying I downright disagree with you mind. Still, I really just don't like that word. And it takes a lot of thought and a lot of empathic thinking to not hurt anyone's feelings.
Very much a quandary at times on how to express one's thoughts to an audience., and come out unscathed.

To an audience that is split some fraction on an issue, 50./50 for quite a few it seems in the present world, one makes some friends, and becomes an opponent for others. Having bedfellows provides emotional support, but does nothing to support the actual truthfulness of position taken, except in that majority and/or power rules, or can rule, even when detrimental to sectors of society.
The word can become the issue, clouding the discussion, as in "I told you...", "I asked you...", "I mentioned you...", where the connotation of the word can bring about different responses and actions from that intended, The actual issue becomes secondary. Points of order in political debate, and legal debate, spend time over what seems innocuous to the average person the meaning of "a" and "the", or whatever may be at hand at the time that needs clarification.
An audience may or may not appreciate the question that should never be asked since it is self evident to the establishment what the answer is. One well known incident is Galileo's questioning on the centre of the universe earning him a rebuke. The divine right of kings falls into the same logic; the end result being the stifling of debate and granting those with differing views the pleasure of banishment, or worse.
At times entering into a discussion is a lost cause if one is not prepared, as the discussion is set up, deviously or innocently to ensure a winner and a loser. The prime example given many times over is the wife asking the husband "Does this dress make me look fat?" The hazard is to being labelled a bigot, a racist, a ___ supporter, where ___ is any of the societies taboos and abhorrences one usually does not want to be associated with, thus making the not so subtle argument that the view is that from one of lessor humanistic quality.
-----------------------------------------------
Since not everyone is rational, nor critically thinking, nor prone to self assessment, nor prone to assess other viewpoints comprehensively, nor deviate from their position, discussions become lopsided leading to argument and polarization.
I read somewhere that the ancients, singling out the Greeks, were much better at it than us who have the hubris of being enlightened in thought. I cannot express the actual validity, as the reference has been lost in my mind, but considering nowadays that opinion can pass as reality leads me to believe the statement has some reasonableness.

On the other hand opinion as reality does shape society, and has for millennia.
So we have discussions surrounding rights, choices, behaviors whether they are from nature vs nurture, divine vs natural, expecting science to have all the answers. Funny thing is for the social sciences ( along with suspect medical cures for social problems ), the harms done to people in the name of science is often overlooked. Lobotomies, drugs, ... all promised cures for conditions that may have been mis-diagnosed - the cure being worse than the 'disease' , and in one case pornographic from a nowadays perspective. ( not frigidity, but apathy ).

------------------------------------------
 
Very much a quandary at times on how to express one's thoughts to an audience., and come out unscathed.

To an audience that is split some fraction on an issue, 50./50 for quite a few it seems in the present world, one makes some friends, and becomes an opponent for others. Having bedfellows provides emotional support, but does nothing to support the actual truthfulness of position taken, except in that majority and/or power rules, or can rule, even when detrimental to sectors of society.
The word can become the issue, clouding the discussion, as in "I told you...", "I asked you...", "I mentioned you...", where the connotation of the word can bring about different responses and actions from that intended, The actual issue becomes secondary. Points of order in political debate, and legal debate, spend time over what seems innocuous to the average person the meaning of "a" and "the", or whatever may be at hand at the time that needs clarification.

I think I hear you. Even though we've been through all this #metoo stuff and whatnot the hierarchy power play is very much in effect. The human condition I guess.

An audience may or may not appreciate the question that should never be asked since it is self evident to the establishment what the answer is. One well known incident is Galileo's questioning on the centre of the universe earning him a rebuke. The divine right of kings falls into the same logic; the end result being the stifling of debate and granting those with differing views the pleasure of banishment, or worse.
At times entering into a discussion is a lost cause if one is not prepared, as the discussion is set up, deviously or innocently to ensure a winner and a loser. The prime example given many times over is the wife asking the husband "Does this dress make me look fat?" The hazard is to being labelled a bigot, a racist, a ___ supporter, where ___ is any of the societies taboos and abhorrences one usually does not want to be associated with, thus making the not so subtle argument that the view is that from one of lessor humanistic quality.

That's why I like the word (if not the concept) of "sealioning". An expression we seem to have missed for a human Denial-of-Service attack. Heh, yeah, and the question: "Did you finally stop hitting your wife?". There's just no possible answer to that.

-----------------------------------------------
Since not everyone is rational, nor critically thinking, nor prone to self assessment, nor prone to assess other viewpoints comprehensively, nor deviate from their position, discussions become lopsided leading to argument and polarization.
I read somewhere that the ancients, singling out the Greeks, were much better at it than us who have the hubris of being enlightened in thought. I cannot express the actual validity, as the reference has been lost in my mind, but considering nowadays that opinion can pass as reality leads me to believe the statement has some reasonableness.

Well the ancient Greeks had their failures too. Taking democracy too far for instance, and every city being at constant war with every other city in the vicinity.

On the other hand opinion as reality does shape society, and has for millennia.
So we have discussions surrounding rights, choices, behaviors whether they are from nature vs nurture, divine vs natural, expecting science to have all the answers. Funny thing is for the social sciences ( along with suspect medical cures for social problems ), the harms done to people in the name of science is often overlooked. Lobotomies, drugs, ... all promised cures for conditions that may have been mis-diagnosed - the cure being worse than the 'disease' , and in one case pornographic from a nowadays perspective. ( not frigidity, but apathy ).

------------------------------------------

You know what they say about opinions: They're like a......., everyone has one.
 

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