Why is there so little empathy in our societies?

[sbrothy]

I may have mentioned this before, but this latest chapter is both scary and a little funny (YMMV). I know I can only speak for myself and the country I live in but it has started to become a pattern. A disgusting and abhorrent pattern. I cannot walk past a child crying, or ignore someone who falls and needs help. Lately (after >5 incidences with children), I've begun keeping in the background to see if anyone else reacts, but surprise! Noone does! People cooly walk past an 8-year old girl standing alone and crying. Last time I waited more than 5 minutes and watched more than 10 adults (and pairs) walking past and ignoring her standing and crying outside a cheap grocery store!

In the end I engaged and asked what was wrong. She couldn't find her mother! Now I already knew it had been more than 5 minutes and upon asking her I couldn't get a straight answer (children and time!).

So I did what most normal people would do in this situation: I called the police. Unfortunately there was a festival in the town in that particular weekend so I got told that they hadn't the time and then they hung up (?!!!).

What to do, what to do. I was p..... off so I called again. I told them: "I'm a 50 year old man standing outside a grocery store with an 8 year old crying girl who can't find her mother. I'm gonna bring her home with me and then we're gonna find a solution. How do you think that sounds?".

Long pause.....

"That didn't sound right. If I stayed there they would send a car."

20 minutes later (TWENTY MINUTES LATER!) a police car arrived. I wasn't holdnig the girls hand, heck I wasn't even close to her, but she was more or less jerked away from me and they never for a minute lost eyecontact with me. It was obvious what they thought of me! I didn't get as much as a comment. She was ushered into the car and then they took off.

If that was what it took then so be it, but man I was p..... off for the rest of the day!

 

[puc]

That is a sad story.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

We still have caveman brains

 

[dlu]

they never for a minute lost eyecontact with me

'A good deed never goes unpunished' is the common saying.

 

[Borg]

When I was a teenager, I was propositioned by a man who was at least 40. I was scared to death, told him no, and managed to leave. When I told a cop about it later, he acted like it was no big deal with a side order of "not my job". For me, it's definitely a change that they gave you the stink eye. Maybe in another 50 years they'll do their jobs like they should.

 

[fresh_42]

I remember looking after a young neighbor boy once because his parents didn't have time, and I was available. It wasn't a big deal. Then he needed to use the toilet for a bowel movement. When he was finished, I asked if he could clean himself up; he said no. So, out of necessity, I took care of it myself. It certainly wasn't pleasant. My biggest worry was that he might tell his parents later that I had touched his bottom. I headed that off by telling them about it myself. Fortunately—and to my great relief—the mother’s reaction was just as matter-of-fact as the incident itself. She simply remarked that now I could see what she had to deal with all the time.

It seems as though the "new normal" consists of the "old normal" plus an insurance policy confirming that it was normal. In your case, the police served as that insurance policy.

 

[sbrothy]

I remember looking after a young neighbor boy once because his parents didn't have time, and I was available. It wasn't a big deal. Then he needed to use the toilet for a bowel movement. When he was finished, I asked if he could clean himself up; he said no. So, out of necessity, I took care of it myself. It certainly wasn't pleasant. My biggest worry was that he might tell his parents later that I had touched his bottom. I headed that off by telling them about it myself. Fortunately—and to my great relief—the mother’s reaction was just as matter-of-fact as the incident itself. She simply remarked that now I could see what she had to deal with all the time.

It seems as though the "new normal" consists of the "old normal" plus an insurance policy confirming that it was normal. In your case, the police served as that insurance policy.

At least that I can understand. It's just normal human business. But you were right to be worried. Especially in these times.

 

[sbrothy]

'A good deed never goes unpunished' is the common saying.

Luckily I'm a gluttton for punishment, which I think is another saying. Still though...

 

[dlu]

I wonder if this ( helping another person or walking on by ) has anything to do with the Christian values one has grown up with and believes in, and acts upon without knowing why as it seems to be the natural thing to do.
Or perhaps it is ingrained in some by DNA and not in others, and both 'moralities' would then be valid choices dictated by evolution rather than from a society or institutional based code of honour.

Note that the Pope says to look after your brother ( neighbor, stranger ), while some other sects say family comes first. Is one viewpoint more correct than another? Lending aid to another 'stranger' does have a level of risk, whereupon an act seen as kind could jeopardize your own health and thus in turn the health of your family.

 

[fresh_42]

I wonder if this ( helping another person or walking on by ) has anything to do with the Christian values one has grown up with and believes in, and acts upon without knowing why as it seems to be the natural thing to do.

I recall a conference presentation by an American psychologist - whose name escapes me - who categorized society into four types of people: self-starters, followers, firefighters, and a fourth type I can no longer remember - possibly administrators. Essentially, his talk focused on the minimum percentage of each group that a society requires to be successful, and how these figures are distributed in reality. Some societies have left this equilibrium; the German, for example. We have too few self-starters and too many bureaucrats.

 

[sbrothy]

I recall a conference presentation by an American psychologist - whose name escapes me - who categorized society into four types of people: self-starters, followers, firefighters, and a fourth type I can no longer remember - possibly administrators. Essentially, his talk focused on the minimum percentage of each group that a society requires to be successful, and how these figures are distributed in reality. Some societies have left this equilibrium; the German, for example. We have too few self-starters and too many bureaucrats.

As I'm an atheist (meaning that I believe that when I die it's like pressing a lightswitch and welcome to oblivion). I'm a "sociological christian" though, meaning I pay my church tax because I recognize what the church have done for our societies (and I realize it haven't always been a picnic). I realize we need rituals for the passings in our lives (birth, coming of age, and death).

I don't need a bunch of commandments to stop me from walking around randomly murdering strangers; people having those tendencies should either be locked away or dealt with without predujice. Should I honour my parents? What kind of exaperated parent wouldn't have been able to come up with that on their own?

Still, it's like a lot of people forgot something very very simple about Jesus' basic message.

EDIT: Sorry, looking at your post again I'm not sure I see the connection. I just had this worked up within me.

 

[dlu]

What kind of exaperated parent wouldn't have been able to come up with that on their own?

What kind of child wouldn't have been able to come up with that on their own?
There is also a risk/benefit playoff. The benefit of adherence is something along the lines of security. The risk is diminished personal achievement. While seemingly good advice on paper, complete commitment in real life does present difficulties.

Still, it's like a lot of people forgot something very very simple about Jesus' basic message.

As with any message there is filtering. No two people will hear and interpret a message exactly the same, nor be able to paraphrase a message providing clarity. And assimilate the message against a backdrop of life experience and personality type.

Hence my pondering as to how much nature/nurture has to play in the reactions, such as empathy, that normal people do display in their walk of life. One can even ask if career choices are shaped in the same way, where post 10 by @fresh_42 becomes applicable.
In your story, does it seem that the institutionalized code of conduct could have overrode any empathetic considerations the police officers may have held, with which you became annoyed. And no wonder as their reaction falsifies the 'Serve and Protect' motto presented to the public.

 

[fresh_42]

I think that we can rule out religion as a motive. Most religious people do not act in accordance with their beliefs. It's probably the self-starter (used to solve problems) and the firefighter section (used to help others) who would act. But both are minorities in this classification scheme. Also, police officers, and particularly their training, differ a lot from country to country, and in the case of the USA, also from town to town, as I've been told. One would think that helping a lost person, and especially a child, is out of the question, and we expect it from anybody. That's not automatically the case, and maybe someone just had a bad day. I guess that, formally, it is the youth welfare office that is responsible, not the police.

 

[sbrothy]

What kind of child wouldn't have been able to come up with that on their own?
There is also a risk/benefit playoff. The benefit of adherence is something along the lines of security. The risk is diminished personal achievement. While seemingly good advice on paper, complete commitment in real life does present difficulties.


As with any message there is filtering. No two people will hear and interpret a message exactly the same, nor be able to paraphrase a message providing clarity. And assimilate the message against a backdrop of life experience and personality type.

Hence my pondering as to how much nature/nurture has to play in the reactions, such as empathy, that normal people do display in their walk of life. One can even ask if career choices are shaped in the same way, where post 10 by @fresh_42 becomes applicable.
In your story, does it seem that the institutionalized code of conduct could have overrode any empathetic considerations the police officers may have held, with which you became annoyed. And no wonder as their reaction falsifies the 'Serve and Protect' motto presented to the public.

And indeed I guess most children do automatically, as you say it comes with benefits, but still. It has value in itself.

I was outraged that not only do random people not care, but even the police seemed more concerned with a bunch of 18-30 year olds, who really should be old enough to not drink themselves into idiocy in >30 degrees centigrade, than an unhappy and scared child below the age of 10. Also, their treatment of me ticked me off. I realize I may have asked for it a little, but I doubt a real pervert would have called the police to begin with.

Also as I said this is beginning to look like a pattern. I now have more than 5 stories along the same lines. Sometimes with children approaching me for some reason (maybe because I radiate that I have the time, or maybe I don't look dangerous, although for reasons I wont go into the last one sounds implausible to me).

 

[sbrothy]

I think that we can rule out religion as a motive. Most religious people do not act in accordance with their beliefs. It's probably the self-starter (used to solve problems) and the firefighter section (used to help others) who would act. But both are minorities in this classification scheme. Also, police officers, and particularly their training, differ a lot from country to country, and in the case of the USA, also from town to town, as I've been told. One would think that helping a lost person, and especially a child, is out of the question, and we expect it from anybody. That's not automatically the case, and maybe someone just had a bad day. I guess that, formally, it is the youth welfare office that is responsible, not the police.

Yeah, I really don't know why I mixed religion into it. Perhaps because I just wrote about religion on my site as part of my praise for the center.

 

[fresh_42]

Sometimes with children approaching me for some reason (maybe because I radiate that I have the time, or maybe I don't look dangerous, although for reasons I wont go into the last one sounds implausible to me).

I have a theory. I live near Frankfurt and once visited Magdeburg. On my arrival, I stopped for a coffee and sat down there. A group of students from Düsseldorf entered the café and asked me where to find the town hall.

I thought about that event a lot. Wouldn't it be more promising to ask the waiter? Why did they expect me to be a local? I think the difference is in the way we participate with our surroundings. The waiter was probably busy, not very open to questions apart from an order, whereas I was looking curious and observed everything around me. It was far easier to contact me than any local since I was already "on alert". I, too, move "closed" when walking in my hometown, barely interested in the people surrounding me.

My working hypothesis is that it is our own openness that drives the interactions.

 

[sbrothy]

I have a theory. I live near Frankfurt and once visited Magdeburg. On my arrival, I stopped for a coffee and sat down there. A group of students from Düsseldorf entered the café and asked me where to find the town hall.

I thought about that event a lot. Wouldn't it be more promising to ask the waiter? Why did they expect me to be a local? I think the difference is in the way we participate with our surroundings. The waiter was probably busy, not very open to questions apart from an order, whereas I was looking curious and observed everything around me. It was far easier to contact me than any local since I was already "on alert". I, too, move "closed" when walking in my hometown, barely interested in the people surrounding me.

My working hypothesis is that it is our own openness that drives the interactions.

It sounds very plausible. Another point of irony, though, seems to me: how hard can it be to find the town hall in a city? Then again it could be confusing for a tourist in my own hometown and I've seen German cities like Hamburg (and watched how you park your cars! I'd almost rather drive around Italy. No, not really!

 

[fresh_42]

... how hard can it be to find

They had roughly a kilometer to walk (or use a tram). Magdeburg was one of the most heavily destroyed cities in WWII, so it's not quite as trivial to find landmarks as it sounds. And several taxis were probably not in the kids' budget.

I once was in Cologne and thought I was smart when I parked my car near the Cathedral in order to find it later more easily. Not the best idea I've ever had. The closer I was to the Cathedral, the less I saw of it.

 

[fresh_42]

I'd almost rather drive around Italy. No, not really!

A joke about a Roman taxi driver: The first traffic light is red—he speeds right through the intersection. The second light is red—he speeds right through. The third light is red—he speeds right through. The fourth light is green—and he slams on the brakes. When asked why, he says: "Now my colleagues are coming from the left and right."

And what I observed in Madrid: A road with n lanes factually carries 2n lanes of cars.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Empathy in large part is cultural. When you have the old generation clutching their blood wealth and the new generation clutching 10s shock videos. Where is the room for empathy?

 

[sbrothy]

What I find ironic though, is that I have very little mental surplus and still I end up with the hot potato (As I wrote I've started to stay in the background for 5-10 minutes just to see if anyone else reacts and I havent seen anyone do it yet! And we're talking a bustling central trainstation among other places.

On a brighter note, the girl the police wouIdn't pick up until I presented myself as a possible pervert (I didn't call 911 (112 here), I was using the non-emergency numer 114 because it wasn't yet an emergency - and honestly what kind of pervert calls the poilce?!!). Her parents were wanted in the evening radio and the morning paper. I don't know anything else. God forbid the police should call me and tell the story ended well!

Yes. I'm mad.

I also once sat with a guy who wanted to take his own life. He wanted to buy drugs from me but as soon as i deduced what he wanted them for I offered to prepare it for him (so not even a child could die from it). I called every number on his phone. his family, the suicide hotline, police, the psychiatric ward. Noone was interested (he'd threathened with it before) even though I send the a picture of all the pills he had amassed (we're talking a 20cm mountain of different pills). As I couldn't stay indefinitely I left. 60 minutes after I left he was dead! Did the police call me and ask how I felt about it? Of course not.

No, I lost all illusions.

 

[sbrothy]

Empathy in large part is cultural. When you have the old generation clutching their blood wealth and the new generation clutching 10s shock videos. Where is the room for empathy?

I'm pretty sure the really ugly shock sites has been driven underground (I havent checked). I mean those that showed the gore of suicide and disgusting carcrashes. (I specifically remember Don't go there, there are some parts of it that are funny but they encourage people to commit suicide, film it (and call it "being an hero", with lots of graphic picures) but I can understand if you loose empathy if your "friends" show you something that is even worse. Still, what is wrong with people who stop to look at a carcrash (I've seen people holding their <10 year old child's hand standing and looking as EMTs and fireservices cut people out of their car IRL (as I drove by, mind!). A child like that must become jaded (I realize the parents are beyond help).

EDIT: I also realize that site is just trying to provoke, still, its disgusting.

EDIT2: I searched the rules but I couldn't find anything pertaining to this, but I suspect I'm gonna get a fingerspanking with a sliderule. I just wanted to show what I mean ED - Suicide (Don't press this link if your empathy is already low

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

ugly shock sites

I'm mostly talking about relatively benign tiktok videos that are just vapid.

 

[sbrothy]

I'm mostly talking about relatively benign tiktok videos that are just vapid.

Yes, but that's the probelm today isn't it? You cannot tell the difference anymore!

 

[fresh_42]

I think this is also the reason for the current success of right-wing movements around the globe. You cannot be empathic and simultaneously support their politics of ostracism, in my opinion. The thought "we humans" is far from being reality. Just consider the various Climate Change conferences and the willingness to act, or does anybody think about those future homeless people on many Pacific islands? I think antipathy is a general habit that can be observed on larger scales as it can on small scales. An example is the German phenomenon of an increasing disrespect towards emergency helpers, first responders. I mean, which sane person would attack firefighters or paramedics? However, it happens here, and the numbers increase.

 

[sbrothy]

I recall a conference presentation by an American psychologist - whose name escapes me - who categorized society into four types of people: self-starters, followers, firefighters, and a fourth type I can no longer remember - possibly administrators. Essentially, his talk focused on the minimum percentage of each group that a society requires to be successful, and how these figures are distributed in reality. Some societies have left this equilibrium; the German, for example. We have too few self-starters and too many bureaucrats.

I don't want to needlessly compare, but it almost sounds like Brave New World.

 

[sbrothy]

I remember looking after a young neighbor boy once because his parents didn't have time, and I was available. It wasn't a big deal. Then he needed to use the toilet for a bowel movement. When he was finished, I asked if he could clean himself up; he said no. So, out of necessity, I took care of it myself. It certainly wasn't pleasant. My biggest worry was that he might tell his parents later that I had touched his bottom. I headed that off by telling them about it myself. Fortunately—and to my great relief—the mother’s reaction was just as matter-of-fact as the incident itself. She simply remarked that now I could see what she had to deal with all the time.

It seems as though the "new normal" consists of the "old normal" plus an insurance policy confirming that it was normal. In your case, the police served as that insurance policy.

As I tell my own stories sometimes your's comes to mind and I tell that too.... (some guy from Germany, who I don't really know at all...), and the reponse from mothers's are susually the same (inluding our warning thoughts). The "worst" comment I've heard though is something along the lines of: "I would've hoped my husband would've behaved like that!".

 

[Klystron]

A joke about a Roman taxi driver: The first traffic light is red—he speeds right through the intersection. The second light is red—he speeds right through. The third light is red—he speeds right through. The fourth light is green—and he slams on the brakes. When asked why, he says: "Now my colleagues are coming from the left and right."

And what I observed in Madrid: A road with n lanes factually carries 2n lanes of cars.

Let me offer a cultural reference similar to your taxi joke. A highly intelligent alien creature visits rural America to understand humans. Taking the form of her deceased husband via DNA from preserved hair, our Starman enlists a young person to aid his quest for knowledge.

Starman watches her drive a car and learns this lesson:

"Red light -- stop!"
"Green light -- go fast!"
"Yellow light -- go vey, very fast!".