Describe Our Current Political System

[Klystron]

In posts in the New York Times (NYT) and Washington Post (WaPo) commentators including me have described our current situation as oligarchic fascism.

Oligarchic or corporate refers to certain privileged families, cliques and similar entities owning or controlling vital resources and seeking to rule the populace. Fascism derives from post-Republic Rome where armed enforcers carrying bundles of sticks (fasci), intimidated citizens and political rivals, often with personal threats and actual violence.

Fascism as defined in early 20th Century Italy consists of a powerful figurehead dictating not only policy, but almost all facets of daily life. Modern fascism embraces controlled communication technology, economic controls, sham or gerrymandered elections, physical intimidation including torture and imprisonment, big lie propaganda, and always racism and the fear of "Others" internal and international.

From https://www.dictionary.com/browse/fascism

a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Oligarchy defined from same source:

a form of government in which all power is vested in a few persons or in a dominant class or clique; government by the few.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I think the reality is a bit more nuanced and unique, but in a pinch, I'd agree with that. I might qualify it as stupid oligarchic fascism. The fact that it's stupidly executed is what may just save us.

 

[fresh_42]

Honestly? It currently seems to be closer to an absolute monarchy than to a democracy, and the King has some serious mental problems and lacks education to understand basic principles in economy and diplomacy. But that's my personal view from outside.

 

[fresh_42]

I think the reality is a bit more nuanced and unique, but in a pinch, I'd agree with that. I might qualify it as stupid oligarchic fascism. The fact that it's stupidly executed is what may just save us.

A dangerous insurance. They might find out how Berlusconi, Orban, Erdogan or Putin deal(t) with it.

 

[Klystron]

I think the reality is a bit more nuanced and unique, but in a pinch, I'd agree with that. I might qualify it as stupid oligarchic fascism. The fact that it's stupidly executed is what may just save us.

No argument, I like to define terms from the beginning. If I have learned one thing following PhysicsForums (PF) and daily digital news such as NYT, WaPo and Guardian: Stupidity reigns.

 

[fresh_42]

I don't want to open a new thread and I think this news fits well in here.

U.S. citizen child recovering from brain cancer deported to Mexico with undocumented parents​

The Texas family was on their way to an emergency medical checkup, they said, when they were detained at an immigration checkpoint.

A family that was deported to Mexico hopes they can find a way to return to the U.S. and ensure their 10-year-old daughter, who is a U.S. citizen, can continue her brain cancer treatment.

Immigration authorities removed the girl and four of her American siblings from Texas on Feb. 4, when they deported their undocumented parents.

U.S. citizen child recovering from brain cancer deported to Mexico with undocumented parents

The Texas family was on their way to an emergency medical checkup, they said, when they were detained at an immigration checkpoint.

www.nbcnews.com

I better do not comment by my personal opinion, it wouldn't be "civilized."

 

[fresh_42]

... at least they didn't separate them as it was common routine during his first term. I did not forget this and that Trump is responsible for many orphans. This inhumane cruelty alone should have prevented a re-election.

 

[Klystron]

... at least they didn't separate them as it was common routine during his first term. I did not forget this and that Trump is responsible for many orphans. This inhumane cruelty alone should have prevented a re-election.

So true. Cruelty toward weak and helpless remains a hallmark of fascism through the ages, along with fawning and bowing to powerful sadists.

 

[fresh_42]

Cruelty toward weak and helpless remains a hallmark of fascism through the ages

And to blame minorities regardless of facts. However, our "him" never blamed Jews for eating our pets. Seriously, how in the world could you have voted for such an amount of stupidity?

 

[Klystron]

And to blame minorities regardless of facts. However, our "him" never blamed Jews for eating our pets. Seriously, how in the world could you have voted for such an amount of stupidity?

Despite rampant antisemitism again scorching America, Israel's dramatic victories circa 1960-1970s burnished our image among American military and by concatenation, militant wannabes. Each fervid Republican in my family was also a war veteran, else hated paying income tax.

Realizing Jews fight fascists like nobody's business and confused by typical Ashkenazi features such as blonde/red hair and fair skin, organized modern racists direct their ire at more prominently pigmented victims. For now...

 

[Grinkle]

It currently seems to be closer to an absolute monarchy

If the SCOTUS supports Trumps vision of radically diminished separation of powers, it may become legally just that in addition to de-facto just that. I can't think of a better word to describe where we are at the moment.

Unitary executive theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Klystron]

Honestly? It currently seems to be closer to an absolute monarchy than to a democracy, and the King has some serious mental problems and lacks education to understand basic principles in economy and diplomacy. But that's my personal view from outside.

Yes, if we simplify the situation and focus on Trump, a description or analogy to past monarchs appears valid. Compliant legislative bodies bowing to a King.

Having lived and worked in an actual Kingdom with a divine monarch and pliant parliament, I see the King more as figurehead with the military and militarized police actually running things in service to monied interests beneath a surface veneer of 'democracy'.

Monarchs are sovereign, the only 'true citizen'. Certainly libertarian authors mourn for and wax nostalgic for a great ruler to set things straight under the guise of corporate 'liberty'. Strongman dictators replaced Kings long ago.

The archaic monarch has been replaced by a mob boss who holds power with lies, propaganda, political attacks, mob violence (read January 6), aided by pliant co-opted legislature, corrupted judiciary, bought press under wealthy control.

This description, presuming accuracy, sounds like nascent corporate/oligarchic fascism rather than a monarchy. If Trump anoints Donnie Jr. annd Eric as divine princes, I shall rethink these descriptions.

 

[fresh_42]

I used the words "absolute monarchy" only to avoid the terms I truly had in mind, which might have caused a flamboyant debate about words instead of content.

I see a lot of parallels to our history when the Weimar Republic broke down, a rather liberal democratic system we had after WWI. One of its main weaknesses was that it was actually too liberal. If you are tolerant even versus those who propagate intolerance, you will finally lose freedom and that was what happened to the Weimar Republic. It is also the reason why we have some hurdles in our constitution now that some outside of Germany consider a restriction of liberty; e.g., Musk. We had to learn it the hard way that a society that wants to remain free needs rules against those who want to abolish this freedom. And if that means, that agitation and hatred speech is forbidden, then be it so. The alternative has sent the entire world in a terrible war! It's not surprising that people like Musk don't like that. They cannot spread racism, hatred, the holocaust lie, or fascistoid ideas like Goebbels did without facing legal consequences here.

Unfortunately, I am reminded of that time in our history a lot these days. Here is a list:

a) Enabling Act - a real danger to America if copied.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

b) Neville Chamberlain - appeasement politics

Munich Agreement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

c) Annexions - Greenland, Panama, Canada.

The Sudetenland Crisis or Sudeten German Crisis in 1938 was an international conflict provoked and escalated by Nazi Germany with the aim of destroying the state existence of Czechoslovakia and incorporating its Bohemian, Moravian and Silesian regions into the German Reich.

Sudetenkrise – Wikipedia

de.wikipedia.org

Austria came next, then the war against Poland.

d) Gleichschaltungsgesetz - maybe not yet, but tendencies are visible.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provi...the_Coordination_of_the_States_with_the_Reich

e) Propaganda - that's what already happens

Initially aggressively directed against the Weimar state, the National Socialists pursued "integration propaganda" for the "national community" after 1933. Their messages, disseminated through the media, resonated primarily because they connected with pre-existing values.

Medien und Propaganda 1933 | Deutschland 1933 | bpb.de

Welche Rolle spielten Massenmedien beim Aufstieg der NSDAP? Die Propagandabotschaften der Nationalsozialisten verfingen vor allem, weil sie an bereits bestehende Werthaltungen anknüpften.

www.bpb.de

e) FOX & X & FB(?)
I haven't found a parallel to Germany, yet, which is probably only due to lack of searching, and the fact that it was the relatively new radio that played a decisive role in the 1930s which makes it harder to compare. But the strategies of Berlusconi, Erdogan, Putin, etc. are possibly a goal of Musk and Trump.

f) GOP
The NSDAP didn't have a majority at first and many thought they could keep them under control. A terrible misjudgement.

I am not saying that these parallels are one-to-one or inevitable. I am just reminded.

 

[fresh_42]

I forgot to add

g) Ribbentrop

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

which sealed the fate of Poland! Today we have negotiations between the USA and Russia that are clearly aimed to destroy the Ukraine, or its sovereignty, or at least split its territory!

 

[Klystron]

Have not finished reading (or re-reading in the case of historical documents) each citation yet, but the parallels between early 20th C. politics and early 21st Century chill the bones. Are we doomed to repeat the past?

Society evolved but not human nature, at least not by much in 80 to 90 years. Greed, stupidity, arrogance, and hate triumph over cooperation, compromise, fraternity and accord. Words, but the first four words practically form the MAGA mantra.

 

[fresh_42]

Have not finished reading (or re-reading in the case of historical documents) each citation yet, but the parallels between early 20th C. politics and early 21st Century chill the bones. Are we doomed to repeat the past?

I like to say: "I did not understand the US war in Afghanistan! I understood the desire to catch Bin Laden, but that didn't work that way, did it? I dare to claim that a phone call to London or Moscow would have been a lot cheaper! Both have tried with very modern armies at their point in time. Neither the British attempt nor the Soviet attempt was successful."

Society evolved but not human nature, at least not by much in 80 to 90 years. Greed, stupidity, arrogance, and hate triumph over cooperation, compromise, fraternity and accord. Words, but the first four words practically form the MAGA mantra.

People change far slower than in a century. A physicist here who moderates science shows on TV once commented: "The people 5,000 years ago weren't any dumber than we are. They simply haven't had access to information as we do now but their mindset wasn't much different."

That's the actual point: the ignorance of available information.

 

[fresh_42]

A picture from X:

 

[Klystron]

...
e) Propaganda - that's what already happens

Medien und Propaganda 1933 | Deutschland 1933 | bpb.de

Welche Rolle spielten Massenmedien beim Aufstieg der NSDAP? Die Propagandabotschaften der Nationalsozialisten verfingen vor allem, weil sie an bereits bestehende Werthaltungen anknüpften.

www.bpb.de

e) FOX & X & FB(?)
I haven't found a parallel to Germany, yet, which is probably only due to lack of searching, and the fact that it was the relatively new radio that played a decisive role in the 1930s which makes it harder to compare. But the strategies of Berlusconi, Erdogan, Putin, etc. are possibly a goal of Musk and Trump.

While not precisely parallels, we may establish historical analogies that compare information dissemination and technology, then and now, also expanding discussion beyond Germany.

For convenience authors begin the information age after WWII but historians often cite adoption of the printing press. Martin Luther and John Calvin, to name but two, preached popular protest to large congregations but relied on printed material to actually spread the word to the masses.

Pre-WWII union organizer singer-songwriter Woody Guthrie and compatriots spoke and sang at migrant worker camps but also performed and inspired protest at friendly radio broadcast stations reaching millions of fans. across USA.

Likewise staunch anti-union antisemite Father Coughlin broadcast hate speech to a vast audience that would put Fox news talking heads to shame.

Father Coughlin, was a Canadian–American Catholic priest and antisemite based near Detroit. ... Dubbed "The Radio Priest " and considered a leading demagogue, {Coughlin] was one of the first political leaders to use radio to reach a mass audience. During the 1930s, when the U.S. population was about 120 million, an estimated 30 million listeners tuned in to his weekly broadcasts.

 

[fresh_42]

While not precisely parallels, we may establish historical analogies that compare information dissemination and technology, then and now, also expanding discussion beyond Germany.

We live in an era where all this happens on the internet. The Russian interference in American general elections has happened, and today I read a headline that a study shows they interfere with AI chatbots like ChatGPT. It didn't surprise me much so I didn't search for that study. Call me old-fashioned but I still have difficulties understanding why something on the Internet or an AI should affect my opinions. As to me they can write whatever they want. It starts getting to worry me if major news media get controlled, like it is the case in Turkey, Russia, Poland, Italy, Hungary, and probably many more. The way Musk and Trump talk about news media, as of today, CNN, is what really should be bothered!

It has begun!

 

[dlu]

Call me old-fashioned but I still have difficulties understanding why something on the Internet or an AI should affect my opinions.

Because the stories they write appear to be legit.
If someone is not already up in current affairs, the ability to elicit emotion and sway opinion is there, if that is the reason for them being put out on the internet.

There has been an uptick on these half-truth stories during the last few months since Trudeau's resignation or Trump's win to President ( not sure what the catalyst is ) about Canadian politics and policy - click bait headings.

Then again, does the 'publisher' get $ for each click.

 

[Klystron]

The current and former guy fulfills more requirement of the fascist playbook by declaring war on nebulous "enemies" and attacking relatively soft targets that cannot meaningfully fight back. To wit:

https://wapo.st/4ixnAjE

Including petty vindictiveness:

https://wapo.st/4iq3vMa

 

[fresh_42]

After repeated claims of taking over Greenland, the Trump administration is now asking Denmark for extra eggs amid shortage​

After repeated claims of taking over Greenland, the Trump administration is now asking Denmark for extra eggs amid shortage

The U.S. Department of Agriculture has formally requested Denmark ramp up egg exports as American poultry farms battle the bird flu.

fortune.com

Is this chutzpah, audacity, ignorance, or just plain stupidity?

​

 

[Klystron]

Is this chutzpah, audacity, ignorance, or just plain stupidity?

​

While I imagine the question is rhetorical, those descriptions are not exclusive. Stupidity and ignorance breed arrogance.

 

[morrobay]

Right Wing Populism: In the US that would be the current Trump administration. In France Le Pen's National Ralley, In Germany AfD. As well as governments in Italy and Hungary. Nationalism is strong immigration policies and borders, law enforcement, as well as infrastructure projects . Baffled by all the opposition to this form of government in the US , France and Germany. Right wing Populism is - The will of the people.

 

[Grinkle]

Baffled

Try reading at least the first paragraph of the link below; it captures many of the themes posters here have taken the time to write out for you.

No one here, as far as I have read at least, objects to secure borders, reformed immigration policy, effective law enforcement or sound infrastructure.

You openly embrace erosion of separation-of-powers ('radical activist judiciary obviously needs to be curbed') without acknowledging that this is what people are objecting to, not any underlying policy arguments. As long as you refuse to look at the erosion of liberal democratic values as the most concerning issue being discussed here, you will remain baffled.

Tyranny of the majority - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[dlu]

Deserves a repeat

s long as you refuse to look at the erosion of liberal democratic values as the most concerning issue being discussed here, you will remain baffled.

 

[placebo]

Right Wing Populism: In the US that would be the current Trump administration. In France Le Pen's National Ralley, In Germany AfD. As well as governments in Italy and Hungary. Nationalism is strong immigration policies and borders, law enforcement, as well as infrastructure projects . Baffled by all the opposition to this form of government in the US , France and Germany. Right wing Populism is - The will of the people.

I was going to respond by saying I was baffled how you could so willfully ignore violations of the rule of law, the lack of due process, etc. But then I realized you don't care about those things—at least, not until they affect you personally.

Most of us here realize that if the government is allowed to trample on the rights of some, it's just a matter of time before it's violating the rights of everyone. We're opposed to "this form of government" because we're opposed to despotism.

 

[morrobay]

No one here, as far as I have read at least, objects to secure borders, reformed immigration policy, effective law enforcement or sound infrastructure.

. Ok but the people here also wanted to vote in another four years of the Biden / Harris administration. An administration with open border polices that allowed eight million illegal Southern border crossings. And an administration that did not control the "BLM" destructive anarchy in Portland. ( If the police cannot/do not enforce the law , then the president has the authority to suspend the Posse Comitatus act and federalize the national guard in times of civil unrest and order the military to restore order). Infrastructure? Well there could be a lot more if the billions going down that Ukraine rabbit hole were available. Side note: And until ya all realize this democrats will continue to lose elections.

 

[Grinkle]

@morrobay
I don't think you absorbed a bit of what I said in post #25. That aside, we are no longer on topic - if you want to discuss any of those line items in your post #28, please open a new thread with a reference to properly frame things.

 

[Klystron]

@morrobay
I don't think you absorbed a bit of what I said in post #25. That aside, we are no longer on topic - if you want to discuss any of those line items in your post #28, please open a new thread with a reference to properly frame things.

While I do not agree with @morrobay on most political stances, I deliberately created this thread to discuss our current political system.

When a Moderator removes posts seemingly at whim or stifles discussion they find disagreeable, though within CW rules, and continues to arbitrarily spin off alternate threads, then purpose is lost prima facie.

Certainly PhysicsForums contains several long-term threads that set a tone and define terminology used in more specific threads and posts.
Thanks for reading.