Describe Our Current Political System

[Grinkle]

@Klystron I'll send you a pm to discuss.

 

[placebo]

It would help if you got your news from other sources.

Ok but the people here also wanted to vote in another four years of the Biden / Harris administration. An administration with open border polices that allowed eight million illegal Southern border crossings.

Biden did admittedly do a poor job with immigration, but it wasn't an open-border policy. That's a right-wing, fear-mongering spin on the long-broken immigration system, which Congress has refused to deal with for decades.

Note that there was a bipartisan bill in Congress to address the border, a bill in which Democrats agreed to a Republican wish list on the border. Trump had the bill killed because he's not truly interested in solving the problem.

And an administration that did not control the "BLM" destructive anarchy in Portland. ( If the police cannot/do not enforce the law , then the president has the authority to suspend the Posse Comitatus act and federalize the national guard in times of civil unrest and order the military to restore order).

Again, this is right-wing spin. It's MAGA types again wanting to play the victim.

Records rebut claims of unequal treatment of Jan. 6 rioters

Some people charged in the Jan. 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol and their Republican allies claim the Justice Department is treating them harshly because of their political views.

apnews.com

Note that the BLM protests started during Trump's first term. I guess he didn't care to control the anarchy either. And I'll note that the Jan. 6 criminals are out and about thanks to Trump while BLM protesters are still in prison.

Infrastructure? Well there could be a lot more if the billions going down that Ukraine rabbit hole were available.

Despite his promises, Trump never got an infrastructure bill passed. Biden got a bipartisan bill passed.

And Ukraine vs. infrastructure is a false dichotomy. There's no guarantee that if funds weren't being sent to Ukraine, it would go towards infrastructure.

 

[morrobay]

Border bill ? : 20 billion to border, 60 billion to Ukraine. Again the above type of logic is why the democrats lost and will continue losing elections. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/5/us-senate-border-security-bill-what-you-need-to-know

 

[morrobay]

@placebo . Is this Right Wing spin ? https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/09/04/39-photos-capture-americas-summer-of-violent-riots/L

 

[morrobay]

I

Note that there was a bipartisan bill in Congress to address the border, a bill in which Democrats agreed to a Republican wish list on the border. Trump had the bill killed because he's not truly interested in solving the problem

Illegal Southern border crossings down 94% from same period last year https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illega...der-down-94-percent-border-patrol-chief-says/

 

[fresh_42]

Someone's got to tell the Emporer that he is naked.

https://www.libraryofshortstories.com/storiespdf/the-emperors-new-clothes.pdf

 

[Klystron]

@placebo . Is this Right Wing spin ? https://www.dailysignal.com/2020/09/04/39-photos-capture-americas-summer-of-violent-riots/L View attachment 136View attachment 137

Pictures of burning objects do not constitute descriptions of our political systems. Presuming the images are authentic and topical, the implication that DJT and 'MAGA' provide the antidote to anarchy is laughable at best.

 

[fresh_42]

You cannot top this:

Trump Tariffs on Territory Hosting Major US Military Base Spark Confusion​

Trump tariffs on territory hosting major US military base spark confusion

The Diego Garcia military base sits in the heart of the Indian Ocean, but within reach of the Middle East.

www.newsweek.com

The Chagos Archipelago is an archipelago in the Indian Ocean. Politically known as the Chagos Archipelago, it is a British Overseas Territory, the last remaining part of the British Indian Ocean Territory, and serves as a naval and air base for the United States. The indigenous population of the archipelago was expelled from the island group in the 1970s.

The level of stupidity, ignorance, and embarrassment of the current US administration is unsurpassed. And you seriously vote for someone like that?

 

[morrobay]

Pictures of burning objects do not constitute descriptions of our political systems. Presuming the images are authentic and topical, the implication that DJT and 'MAGA' provide the antidote to anarchy is laughable at best.

The context there is in a reply to post #32 by @placebo : My quote in post #32:
And an administration that did not control BLM... And placebo : Called this right wing spin. So in the next 4 years we shall see how Trump controls civil unrest -- Because it's coming.

 

[morrobay]

You cannot top this:

Trump Tariffs on Territory Hosting Major US Military Base Spark Confusion​

Trump tariffs on territory hosting major US military base spark confusion

The Diego Garcia military base sits in the heart of the Indian Ocean, but within reach of the Middle East.

www.newsweek.com

The level of stupidity, ignorance, and embarrassment of the current US administration is unsurpassed. And you seriously vote for someone like that?

Let's go back to the motivation of the vote: The US public across party lines had just had it with the millions of illegal immigrants. That were enabled by the very flawed Biden/Harris administration. Having said that I would have preferred Ron Desantis governor of Florida. Here is screen shot from NYT. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/trump-immigration-border.html

 

[Klystron]

The context there is in a reply to post #32 by @placebo : My quote in post #32:
And an administration that did not control BLM... And placebo : Called this right wing spin. So in the next 4 years we shall see how Trump controls civil unrest.

Thanks for the clarification. In a representative democracy that guarantees free speech as a right for all, federal government does not need to 'control' BLM. If I remember correctly, Black Lives Matter emerged in protest to the death of George Floyd while in local police custody. BLM message is simple and literal: humans have different skin tones and body shapes but are still homo sapiens.

Later protests and demonstrations in Washington D.C. during Trump 1st regime seemed mostly peaceful street theater, certainly not an indicator of violent anarchy. I suggest care 'choosing your battles'. Trump's and AG Bill Barr's violent overreaction to largely peaceful protests in public space across from the White House represent a low point in US history at least until the extremely violent January 6 riots and murders.

 

[fresh_42]

Let's go back to the motivation of the vote: The US public across party lines had just had it with the millions of illegal immigrants. That were enabled by the very flawed Biden/Harris administration. Having said that I would have preferred Ron Desantis governor of Florida. Here is screen shot from NYT. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/us/trump-immigration-border.html

This strategy is old. It was invented from the beginning. "Us versus them" is an artificial perspective created by propagandists. It repeatedly ends in pogroms, like the one currently taking place at the US borders. It's a political method, a fascist one, I might add, not a real problem.

I know from Germany that resentment against foreigners is most pronounced in regions with the fewest immigrants. I bet it's no different in the US.

I live in a town with around about 50% non-Germans. We get along, thanks.

 

[morrobay]

This strategy is old. It was invented from the beginning. "Us versus them" is an artificial perspective created by propagandists. It repeatedly ends in pogroms, like the one currently taking place at the US borders. It's a political method, a fascist one, I might add, not a real problem.

I know from Germany that resentment against foreigners is most pronounced in regions with the fewest immigrants. I bet it's no different in the US.

I live in a town with around about 50% non-Germans. We get along, thanks.

While some elements of the current administration could be called fascist by some and right wing populism by others.The issue of illegal immigration was a major factor in Trump's win. Again the headline from the NYT. And I dare say , while you are very knowledgeable in German political history - you seem to be projecting/superimposing 1939 Germany across the board on to the US present.

 

[fresh_42]

The question has to be: why were they fed up? And the answer is: because some politicians indoctrinated them to feel that way. It isn't a cause, it is a result of manipulations. Once more: the "us versus them" ideology is made up by right extremists. They use minorities as scapegoats.

What you call an immigrant and a president is only 95 years apart.

 

[Borg]

I ran across this site today - https://www.thebulwark.com/ The phrase "liberal democracy" caught my eye since it is on our home page as well. @Greg Bernhardt noted that he gets some news from there but I hadn't visited until today.

The Bulwark was founded to provide analysis and reporting in defense of America’s liberal democracy.​

The Bulwark was founded in 2019, and the idea, then and now, was to tell you what we think—with honesty and good faith.

To put country over party.

To know that we’re all in this together.

And to build a home for the politically homeless.

Note that I just discovered this site and I don't know about everything that they post. I did some due diligence on Wikipedia to get an outside view. The "excesses of the progressive left" bit leaves me cautious but as they say, the enemy of my enemy...

The Bulwark is primarily geared toward readers seeking "serious coverage of events through a center-right filter" but that its editors have sought to attract centrist Democratic readers who may be "uncomfortable with the excesses of the progressive left".

The article that led me there was this one: The American Age Is Over
The key section that I wholeheartly agree with is below. I am becoming more and more convinced that the American public is comprised of some of the dumbest, intentionally uninformed and maliciously cruel hypocrites on the planet.

We cannot overstate what has just happened. It took just 71 days for Donald Trump to wreck the American economy, mortally wound NATO, and destroy the American-led world order.

He did this with the enthusiastic support of the entire Republican party and conservative movement.

He did it with the support of a plurality of American voters.

He did not hide his intentions. He campaigned on them. He made them the central thrust of his election. He told Americans that he would betray our allies and give up our leadership position in the world.

There are only three possible explanations as to why Americans voted for this man:

1. they wanted what he promised;
2. they didn’t believe what he promised; or
3. they didn’t understand what he promised.

Pick whichever rationale you want, because it doesn’t matter. Whatever the reason was, it exposed half of the electorate—the 77 million people who voted for Trump—as either fundamentally unserious, decadent, or weak.

And no empire can survive the degeneration of its people.

 

[placebo]

The context there is in a reply to post #32 by @placebo : My quote in post #32:
And an administration that did not control BLM... And placebo : Called this right wing spin. So in the next 4 years we shall see how Trump controls civil unrest -- Because it's coming.

I still don't understand what the picture was supposed to prove—that there were violent protests? We all know that. And again, take note of the date the picture was taken. It was during the Trump administration, but I guess it's still Biden's fault in your eyes.

 

[dlu]

largely peaceful protests in public space across from the White House represent a low point in US history at least until the

Usually the G7 summit gets a whole slew of protesters, with varying degrees of violence.

This year I heard nothing.
Perhaps all the protesters were just too busy out protesting around the Gaza, Hamas, Israel situation.

because some politicians indoctrinated them to feel that way. It isn't a cause, it is a result of manipulations. Once more: the "us versus them" ideology is made up by right extremists.

Not just the right wing has ideology to indoctrinate.
Ask any Gaza what 'river to the sea' means, and few will know the sea, nor the river.

 

[Grinkle]

few will know the sea, nor the river.

Too true - that goes to what @fresh_42 said regarding the perils of an under-educated populace; one replaces reason with emotion in situations that benefit from having both applied.

 

[fresh_42]

Too true - that goes to what @fresh_42 said regarding the perils of an under-educated populace; one replaces reason with emotion in situations that benefit from having both applied.

This is a fundamental difficulty in any of our Western democracies. The theory requires an enlightened and informed citizen to make educated voting decisions in his favor. That's why for example the media are so important, and often the first victim of tyranny.

On the other hand, politicians prefer uneducated people since they are easier to manipulate and driven to support their positions regardless of any benefits to their supporters. That is why we need public schools and cannot afford to privatize the education system and thereby expose it to even more manipulation.

Unfortunately, the alternatives strip any public control and reduce the political process on pure luck whether you have a good or a bad decision maker.

 

[Grinkle]

That is why we need public schools and cannot afford to privatize the education system and thereby expose it to even more manipulation.

The public sector can do bad things with education, too. In the US, its easy to find examples of local school districts doing much more egregious things than the below Federal influence. I can find references if anyone wants of book banning, but its pretty common-place and I don't expect anyone would not agree that is the situation.

Edit: I have a few more minutes now, so here is a more local reference to go along with the Federal reference.

Book bans in Texas spread as new state law takes effect

As Texas enters its third straight school year of coordinated book banning activity, a growing number of districts are targeting library books. Caught in the dragnet: books featuring a “naked” crayon and one with a cartoon butt.

www.texastribune.org

Fact Sheet: President Donald J. Trump Empowers Parents, States, and Communities to Improve Education Outcomes

RETURNING EDUCATION TO PARENTS AND COMMUNITIES: Today, President Donald J. Trump signed an Executive Order returning power over education to families

www.whitehouse.gov

The Order also directs that programs or activities receiving any remaining Department of Education funds will not advance DEI or gender ideology.

 

[fresh_42]

The public sector can do bad things with education, too.

We have a different system here. Curricula are set up on the state level and ...

... the curricula specify the educational objectives set out in the school laws.

And we usually do not vote morons into office, so there is much less room for damage. The usual discussions here are about how hard general requirements should be, and all kinds of school systems (integrated or separated, length) and didactics. Nobody would ever have the idea of teaching ID or similar nonsense. And since we have a country-wide competition, singular states have to ensure that their children won't have disadvantages compared to others. This doesn't always work but here we talk about things like whether probability theory should be part of mathematics in schools or not, or how fast pupils can solve integration problems. The curricula do not allow much volatility.

 

[dlu]

The theory requires an enlightened and informed citizen to make educated voting decisions in his favor.

Can any one citizen know the inns and outs of each and every issue. So they rely on as you have said media, and even then, news reporting is a summary, with eye catching headlines. I don't think anyone can become an 'expert' and think for themselves, rather than espouse what they have been told. People are good at mimicry, as it takes less energy and time, both precious quantities.

 

[fresh_42]

Can any one citizen know the inns and outs of each and every issue. So they rely on as you have said media, and even then, news reporting is a summary, with eye catching headlines. I don't think anyone can become an 'expert' and think for themselves, rather than espouse what they have been told. People are good at mimicry, as it takes less energy and time, both precious quantities.

That's why I began my statement with "The theory requires ..."

IRL I like to quote my usual statement if asked about good textbooks: "You cannot know all textbooks and compare them, but you can know whom to trust for recommendations!"

The opinion-forming process is multifaceted and complicated, which makes it all the more important to have access to a large variety of different sources.

 

[Klystron]

Despite a life long love of printed books, a majority of my sources are now digital. Our public library offers two free book lending applications, largely replacing coporeal visits.

When I still visited libraries in person to borrow printed literature, I encountered a bizarre form of individual censorship akin to 'book burning'. Self appointed censors hid books they found disagreeable, moving texts to wrong shelves, jamming volumes behind other books, and otherwise keeping interested readers from locating texts.

Librarians confirmed increased outright theft and defacement but this weird method of hiding books from readers is just as pernicious as theft since the library catalog shows the book as avilable on shelf.

As stated in other contexts, functioning democray requires a certain degree of trust and cooperation among citizens. These myriad small betrayals erode public trust.

 

[Klystron]

Noted Republican writer and thinker opines on illiteracy in this NYT column.

...literacy is the backbone of reasoning ability, the source of the background knowledge you need to make good decisions in a complicated world. As the retired general Jim Mattis and Bing West once wrote, “If you haven’t read hundreds of books, you are functionally illiterate, and you will be incompetent, because your personal experiences alone aren’t broad enough to sustain you.”

Brooks elaborates on the importance of critical thinking to guide important decisions and laments a central theme of this thread as described by @Greg Bernhardt : stupidity.

... today one gets the sense that a lot of people are disengaging from the whole idea of mental effort and mental training.

One may disagree with David's central cause of illiteracy and mass stupidity -- screen time, but his descriptions of Trump tariffs validates the read.

What happens when people lose the ability to reason or render good judgments? Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you Donald Trump’s tariff policy. I’ve covered a lot of policies over the decades, some of which I supported and some of which I opposed. But I have never seen a policy as stupid as this one. It is based on false assumptions. It rests on no coherent argument in its favor. It relies on no empirical evidence. It has almost no experts on its side — from left, right or center. It is jumble-headedness exemplified. Trump himself personifies stupidity’s essential feature — self-satisfaction, an inability to recognize the flaws in your thinking.

Opinion | Producing Something This Stupid Is the Achievement of a Lifetime

Maybe we’re just not good at thinking anymore.

www.nytimes.com

 

[dlu]

One may disagree with David's central cause of illiteracy and mass stupidity

I've often wondered about what sets about mass protests, formation of cults, and how much illiteracy and/or stupidity contribute and are part of the equation for some of the participants. Or do people just end up with blinkers, blindly following as if being hypnotized. Perhaps that comes from my study of The Scarlet Letter where the reverend is attempting to profess his sin, but the crowd still worship, misinterpreting his admissions as divine.

Why are there Republicans/ Democrats , Liberals/Conservatives? If the information is there, should not each and all come the same conclusion?

 

[Klystron]

I've often wondered about what sets about mass protests, formation of cults, and how much illiteracy and/or stupidity contribute and are part of the equation for some of the participants. Or do people just end up with blinkers, blindly following as if being hypnotized. Perhaps that comes from my study of The Scarlet Letter where the reverend is attempting to profess his sin, but the crowd still worship, misinterpreting his admissions as divine.

Why are there Republicans/ Democrats , Liberals/Conservatives? If the information is there, should not each and all come the same conclusion?

I admire your study of author Nathaniel Hawthorne though I much prefer reading and know more about his friend Edgar Allen Poe. Hawthorne portrays an essential goodness and beauty even in base misshapen indivduals. It was the crowd, as you allude to, a mob of people who perpetrate ugliness and outrage. Poe operates under no such illusion.

EAP understands human frailty and those who live to exploit it. Hawthorne believes in redemption, Poe in damnation. Poe's characters revel in greed, hatred, horror and despair. The term sociopath, a person devoid of positive emotions unable to feel social responsibility, did not yet exist but both authors, certain;y EAP, would understand the deleterious impact on society of such depraved souls.

There in lies the dilemma. A person able to contemplate and understand Hester's life choices and her moral quandary in accepting the scarlet letter while protecting her daughter and preserving the minister's secrets cannot fully understand the bottomless depravity of a sociopath. Guilt contains no meaning. Shame no basis. Sin invokes pleasure, as does other's suffering. Sociopaths feign emotions, mouthing words like guilt and shame solely to manipulate.

The righteous, however flawed, must withstand this onslaught. Protect the weak and innocent.

 

[dlu]

Sociopaths feign emotions, mouthing words like guilt and shame solely to manipulate.

Seem to me that I had a colleague that was of these characteristics.
Very difficult to hold one's sanity around such a person.

 

[gleem]

There may be more than thirty words for snow by the indigenous Arctic people. In a similar manner, there may be many words that describe the Trump administration, as noted in the following article.especially of a scatological nature.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opin...n&cvid=b90b533295cb4d999fb0f9b9623bb9a1&ei=70

 

[Klystron]

There may be more than thirty words for snow by the indigenous Arctic people. In a similar manner, there may be many words that describe the Trump administration, as noted in the following article.especially of a scatological nature.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opin...n&cvid=b90b533295cb4d999fb0f9b9623bb9a1&ei=70

Reading comments appended to WaPo and NYT political aritcles lists many non-scatalogical terms for 'orange' including "Orange Adolf", "Mango Mussolini", and "Orange not-Julius". Given years of viewing slender good-looking celebrities, the visual appeal of overweight orange hued clumsy oddly coiffured tired MAGA-in-Chief escapes all but true believers.

Among the many Trumpian catastrophes and disasters cited in the attached article, lack of health care and dissolution of health programs appear particularly vicious. As terrible and dehumanistic as most Nazi policies were, at least 20th Century fascists emphasized and facilitated healthy active populace. Difficult to imagine a more deleterious policy than destroying public health care, vital research programs, and healthy nutrition assistance.

Borrowing from (post-)modern literature, even if MAGA considers people as disposable slaves to profit, historical slaveholders recognized the value of strong healthy chattels.