Judge blocked Trump from deporting violent Venezuelan gangs

[fresh_42]

I do not see why ignoring the judiciary as proven by several examples of deportation (plus the inhumane deportation of American children, one of whom recovered from brain cancer and needed medical control, with their parents mentioned elsewhere), the subject of this thread, does not allow an assessment of its meaning and consequences. It is not the deportations, it is about abolishing a fundamental power.

Regardless of whether something seems like a good idea, if it involves breaking or bending the law then it means considering and facing the consequences

Unlawful deportations are just the first sign of it. The very first post is already a judgment

Another example of a progressive judge siding with criminals.

and an attitude that

Fascism isn't all bad

is exactly what leads to fascism. I know, what I am talking about. I paid attention to the history classes in Germany. Those statements sound too familiar to my ears.

Fascism has been the topic of this thread since the very beginning.

 

[dlu]

The rule of law is now dead in the US.

https://www.axios.com/2025/03/17/tom-homan-deportation-flights-trump-court-order

Maybe not dead, but teetering in a new direction away from.
Rule of law has no precise definition ie your law, or my law.
See Legal theory and philosophy

Rule of law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In a free and democratic society, the rule of law shifts in not so dramatic fashion, but is slow and cumbersome.
No wonder the past PM young Trudeau declared that he admired China the most as they can get things done quick and easy. Perhaps Trudeau mistook 'rule by law' for 'rule of law'. Or possibly he was positing that 'rule of man' is preferable.
Which seems the direction south of the 49th.

 

[morrobay]

No wonder the past PM young Trudeau declared that he admired China the most as they can get things done quick and easy.

There is a lot to be said for an executive order being carried out . For example the wall on the Southern border from the Pacific to the Gulf. Trump could have ordered the army corps of engineers to complete. But he was sandbaged. The wall would have been built in China. And by the way ... If this administration was as fascist as ya all are implying - These Venezuelan gang members would not be in the news at all. If you know what I mean.

 

[morrobay]

Perhaps opening up a separate DOGE topic is in order, with links across the political spectrum.

Moderator note: I agree, done.

 

[Grinkle]

But he was sandbaged.

Please provide a reference for this - there are lots of things you might be referring to.

 

[Klystron]

I opened a thread on the press secretary performance, but no one has gone there except Greg. Facism can be combatted there as she sums up some of the silly stuff in a silly way.

Yes, I stopped watching broadcast news during trump1 antics and have not returned, instead reading printed news. As a retired STEM professional, I would rather not comment on what I do not observe. I support those who do keep watch.

I retreated from televised news for self-protection. My critical thinking filters remain intact while reading. TV dulls my faculties, entertaining without informing.

 

[gleem]

A Brown University assistant professor and kidney transplant specialist Dr. Rasha Alawieh was deported for having a photograph of a Hezbollah leader and Islamic scholar Hassan Nasrallah. She had attended a memorial for him in Lebanon with 10s of thousands of others. She admitted following his religious teachings but disavowed his political ideals. No reason was given as to how they knew she attended the memorial or why the took her phone.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/17/us/rasha-alawieh-brown-university-doctor-deported-hezbollah.html

Again there was no due process.

Big brother is watching you, and doing what he wants.

 

[morrobay]

Please provide a reference for this - there are lots of things you might be referring to

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/house-passes-bill-rejecting-trumps-border-wall-emergency-idUSKCN1QF0FX/

 

[morrobay]

Trump’s ‘Big, Beautiful’ Wall Crumbles in Court | ACLU

www.aclu.org

 

[Jonathan Scott]

Yes, as described in those articles, the wall funding situation was a previous occasion on which Trump similarly tried to bend the law, in that case by declaring an imaginary "emergency" in the hope that this would allow him to redirect funding without the approval of Congress.

Again, it's the law. Blaming those who stood up for the law is not acceptable.

 

[Grinkle]

@morrobay

Regarding post 38, I agree this is purely political opposition, what one might call sandbagging, also it was theatrical, as no law was ever going to be passed since Trump would have veto'd it if it were to pass the Senate.

Regarding post 39, this is separation of powers and rule of law. I don't agree this is sandbagging, this is the legitimate operation of checks-and-balances as laid out by the constitution.

That is really a crux (I won't say THE crux as I think there is more than one crux in play) of the current American divide. Does America really like checks-and-balances? I certainly do, even when they work against policies I myself support.

 

[Grinkle]

in that case by declaring an imaginary "emergency"

I also do not think there was a legitimate emergency, but Trump's declaration was lawful. This is an example of what I was saying in post 41 - separation of powers means the executive can declare a state of national emergency, and I support this executive power even when it results in policies I do not agree with.

If it took an act of congress to declare a state of national emergency, we (the US) would be hopelessly unable to ever do so, imo.

 

[placebo]

separation of powers means the executive can declare a state of national emergency, and I support this executive power even when it results in policies I do not agree with.

If it took an act of congress to declare a state of national emergency, we (the US) would be hopelessly unable to ever do so, imo.

I don't. It puts too much power into the hands of one individual, which Trump has demonstrated. There's a reason the Founders required Congress to declare war. National emergencies fall into the same category as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Grinkle]

I don't.

Fair enough. I think the specifics of what powers are best placed with what branches is an area where reasonable people can disagree.

There's a reason the Founders required Congress to declare war.

The last declared war was WWII. Congress is unable to act in such a manner, at least they haven't been able to for the past 70 years or so. One might argue that the executive made Congress lazy by allowing them a pass starting with the Korean war and this is a bad thing.

National emergencies fall into the same category as far as I'm concerned.

I think national emergencies are broader than that, but I do agree that the executive can effectively declare war by declaring a national emergency, and this is problematic for me as well. Trump was not declaring a national emergency at the border in order to use military force per se, however, so imo that is not an example of the executive declaring war unilaterally.

Why Presidents Declare National Emergencies | HISTORY

Since 1979, the United States has technically been in constant states of emergency since outdated declarations have been repeatedly renewed.

www.history.com

 

[EricDMMiller]

The US has started disappearing people.

ICE ‘disappeared’ 48 New Mexico residents, civil rights lawyers say

Attorneys are pressing for answers about the whereabouts of three dozen people arrested in immigration raids

www.independent.co.uk

Think of all the lovely places where this has been practiced in the past. Now, think of what will come next.

 

[Grinkle]

The US has started disappearing people.

Adding NBC News coverage.

Lawyers and advocates say 48 people are unaccounted for after ICE raid in New Mexico

An attorney for the ACLU in the state said community advocates were “on the verge of tears” Monday because they had little to no information on the people who were arrested.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[morrobay]

Yes, as described in those articles, the wall funding situation was a previous occasion on which Trump similarly tried to bend the law, in that case by declaring an imaginary "emergency" in the hope that this would allow him to redirect funding without the approval of Congress.

Again, it's the law. Blaming those who stood up for the law is not acceptable.

Trump in first term declared national emergency at southern border to enable ordering the army corps of engineers to build the wall. And yes it was a national emergency. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presiden...-at-the-southern-border-of-the-united-states/ Although this declaration was current it applied to first term. https://www.gao.gov/blog/building-border-barrier-u.s.-army-corps-engineers-contracting-efforts

 

[morrobay]

@Grinkle My point also.
This case is noy about fascism per say, but rather does the legal branch of government stand on equal footing to the executive.

All three branches, executive, judicial and legislative are on the same level. Unfortunately elements in a particular branch can usurp unreasonable power in some situations. For example the judicial coup d'etat by the supreme court that gave bush the 2000 election. ( Had the recount in Florida gone ahead Gore would have been president. And the Iraq and Afghanistan wars never happened) Now currently we have a progressive/activist judge not only trying to usurp Trump's executive power but also trying to over ride the will of the American people.

 

[Grinkle]

Now currently we have a progressive/activist judge not only trying to usurp Trump's executive power but also trying to over ride the will of the American people.

From the below reference -

===
Boasberg barred the Trump administration from deporting "all non-citizens who are subject to the AEA proclamation" for at least 14 days, imposing a temporary restraining order or TRO.

During that time, while the lawsuit makes its way through the courts, Immigration and Customs Enforcement is meant to keep the noncitizens in its custody.
===

Enforcing due process is as normal a judicial function as it gets. Do you disagree?

I think that characterization is absurd, myself. Courts assess the legality of executive branch / law enforcement actions all the time, at all levels of government. Its hardly usurping, its just a day in the office for a judge.

Trump administration ignores judge's order to turn deportation planes around: Sources

President Donald Trump's administration decided to ignore a judge's order to turn around two flights containing alleged Venezuelan gang members, sources said.

abcnews.go.com

As far as Trumps invocation of the War Power Act, that is certainly not the will of this American. I want criminals deported, and I expect President Trump to find a legal way to do it. His invocation of the War Powers Act angers me, its theatrics meant to stir emotion and seems to me a counter-productive diversion from making America safer for everyone; that means not destroying our culture of due process while deporting criminals.

I'm not trying to feel safe from Tren de Aqua only to then feel unsafe from my own President and what he may do with his authority if he renders the judicial checks that have been in place for hundreds of years ineffective.

 

[Rive]

And yes it was a national emergency.

I'm living in the only EU country where there is national emergency due the war in Ukraine.
And during this thousand-and-some day long emergency practically nothing happened what could mitigate the impact of the war itself, but plenty of unrelated things happened what could help keeping the PM and co. in power, in more and more power.


By the way as far as I can see our PM came from the very same mould as Trump.
And if I'm right then this issue won't be solved any soon either: it'll be just blown bigger and louder with time to justify the invocation of the 'national emergency' itself and the abuse of the power it can grant.

 

[morrobay]

I'm living in the only EU country where there is national emergency due the war in Ukraine.
And during this thousand-and-some day long emergency practically nothing happened what could mitigate the impact of the war itself, but plenty of unrelated things happened what could help keeping the PM and co. in power, in more and more power.


By the way as far as I can see our PM came from the very same mould as Trump.
And if I'm right then this issue won't be solved any soon either: it'll be just blown bigger and louder with time to justify the invocation of the 'national emergency' itself and the abuse of the power it can grant.

Because of all the opposition, legislative ,and judicial Trump gets. Declaring a nation emergency is the only way to get it done. As well as the deportation of the Venezuelan gang. Trump is getting an end to this thousand and some days disaster. These days with google searches about these gangs and the Southern border. I'm baffled why there would be any opposition at all. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presiden...-at-the-southern-border-of-the-united-states/

 

[Jonathan Scott]

The most alarming aspect is not the overall actions being taken in many cases (which may well be justified), but the fact that normal legal processes are being bypassed by use of emergency powers, simply because, in Trump's own words, he wants to get it done "quickly" (and clearly also with a minimum of transparency).

And I hope it should be unnecessary to point out that one should be extremely careful about accepting Trump's word about anything without independent impartial corroboration. That of course applies in general to anyone, but it has been seen that Trump doesn't even necessarily agree with himself, let alone with scientific consensus or proven fact, so the risk is higher. (I hope this point is sufficiently well established not to need a reference, but if evidence is required, this Wikipedia summary is a start, currently with links to over 600 sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_or_misleading_statements_by_Donald_Trump )

 

[Grinkle]

Declaring a nation emergency is the only way to get it done. As well as the deportation of the Venezuelan gang.

If you are going to make this claim, it needs a reference. You are claiming here that the only legal way to deport criminals is by declaring a national emergency. I include the below reference supporting my argument that you are factually wrong here.


============
There are few checks on the authority of immigration officers to place noncitizens in expedited removal proceedings. In essence, the law permits a low-level immigration officer to serve both as prosecutor (charged with enforcing the law) and judge (rendering a final decision on the case). Generally, the entire process consists of a single interview with the inspecting officer while the noncitizen is detained, so there is little or no opportunity to consult with an attorney or to gather any evidence that might prevent deportation.
=============

Expedited Removal Explainer

Expedited removal is a process by which low-level immigration officers can quickly deport certain noncitizens who are undocumented or have committed fraud or misrepresentation.

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org

It is against the guidelines to copy paste AI generated text, so I won't. But a Google search of "expedited removal process" would be a good place for you to start in educating yourself on how factually incorrect you are in making the above claim.

 

[Grinkle]

Declaring a nation emergency

Do you understand the difference between declaring a national emergency, which is lawful for the President to do, and invoking the War Power Act, which the courts have not yet determined the legality of in this case?

President Trump invoked the War Powers Act. You are mis-representing the judges ruling in this case by continuing to reference a national emergency declaration.

 

[morrobay]

Because of all the opposition, legislative ,and judicial Trump gets. Declaring a nation emergency is the only way to get it done. As well as the deportation of the Venezuelan gang.

The context of national emergency was about building the border wall. See original reply to Rive. Understood not the same as WPA. Best to get the Venezuelan gang deported the way it was carried out - That is, before the cows come home

 

[Grinkle]

That is, before the cows come home

I just posted information regarding expedited deportation that says it happens in days. Your assertion that the WPA was the only way for it to happen quickly is not accurate.

Best to get the Venezuelan gang deported the way it was carried out

Not at all best,imo - worst, as I see it. They were in custody. What justification do you see for not waiting a few days or even weeks with them in custody and following due process?

 

[EricDMMiller]

"Violent Venezuelan gangs"?

We’re Finally Seeing the “Evidence” Against the Migrants Deported by Trump. It’s Unbelievable.

The Trump admin said a soccer player had a gang tattoo. It’s a tattoo of Real Madrid’s logo.

slate.com

It sure seems like a bunch of lies and made up nonsense to villainize and dehumanize people.

Edit:
And it looks like a lot of people will be joining them soon:

https://www.cnbc.com/2025/03/20/tesla-charges-arson-trump-musk-bondi-doj.html

 

[dlu]

Chinese influence within Canada. A repugnant example
It is evident that some people are uppity that the Venezuelans were deported without due process, and other breaches of neglect of the rule of law.

It should be equally stressed that other jurisdictions should also not do the same.

Some time ago, the Chinese put out a bounty on several naturalized Canadian citizens to return to China to pay for their crimes ( criticizing the Chinese govt ). No Canadian laws were broken by these individuals at any time.

Recently, during the Canadian election, one of these individuals in a Toronto area riding was targeted by the LIBERAL candidate running for office.

The target --> Conservative Joe Tay
The targeter -->LIBERAL incumbent Paul Chiang

Chiang suggested people in his Toronto-area riding hand over his Conservative rival Joe Tay to the Chinese consulate and collect a bounty.

Here we have a member of the LIBERAL party, running for office, attempting to have his rival, a Conservative, deported, not through Canadian immigration, but through direct Chinese interaction. Was this LIBERAL wearing his MAGA hat at his rally?

The video shows the NDP candidate, Jenny Kwan, discussing the repugnance of such a behavior, no less from a member of LIBERAL party, the party which purports itself as the party of social justice and rule of law.

MSN

NDP candidate Jenny Kwan reacted on Sunday after Liberal incumbent Paul Chiang apologized for comments he made suggesting people in his Toronto-area riding hand over his Conservative rival Joe Tay to the Chinese consulate and collect a bounty. Kwan said Chiang “played right into” the intimidation tactics of the Chinese government

 

[jack action]

Trump Says Undocumented Immigrants Shouldn’t Get Trials Before Deportation (Published 2025)

The president claimed that countries were sending their prisoners to the United States and that he needed to bypass the constitutional demands of due process to expel them quickly.

www.nytimes.com

“I hope we get cooperation from the courts, because we have thousands of people that are ready to go out and you can’t have a trial for all of these people,” Mr. Trump said. “It wasn’t meant. The system wasn’t meant. And we don’t think there’s anything that says that.”

He claimed that the “very bad people” he was removing from the country included killers, drug dealers and the mentally ill.

“We’re getting them out, and a judge can’t say, ‘No, you have to have a trial,’” Mr. Trump said. “The trial is going to take two years. We’re going to have a very dangerous country if we’re not allowed to do what we’re entitled to do.”

Representative Jonathan L. Jackson, Democrat of Illinois, wrote on social media: “‘We can’t give everyone a trial' — excuse me, what?! That’s straight-up #dictator talk. Due process isn’t optional because it’s inconvenient. This is the United States, not a banana republic. If you want to shred the Constitution, just say so.”

Mr. Trump’s comments came after the Supreme Court, early on Saturday, temporarily blocked the administration from deporting a group of Venezuelan migrants it accused of being gang members under the expansive powers of a rarely invoked wartime law.

Mr. Trump issued a proclamation last month invoking the Alien Enemies Act as a way to deport immigrants he alleged were members of Tren de Aragua, a violent Venezuelan street gang. The law, which was passed in 1798, has been used only three times before in U.S. history, during periods of declared war.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Trump Says Undocumented Immigrants Shouldn’t Get Trials Before Deportation (Published 2025)

The president claimed that countries were sending their prisoners to the United States and that he needed to bypass the constitutional demands of due process to expel them quickly.

www.nytimes.com

Just more of the same anti-democratic sociopathy from Trump.