Which Post-9/11 American Wars Were Justified by History?

[fresh_42]

Have not finished reading (or re-reading in the case of historical documents) each citation yet, but the parallels between early 20th C. politics and early 21st Century chill the bones. Are we doomed to repeat the past?

I like to say: "I did not understand the US war in Afghanistan! I understood the desire to catch Bin Laden, but that didn't work that way, did it? I dare to claim that a phone call to London or Moscow would have been a lot cheaper! Both have tried with very modern armies at their point in time. Neither the British attempt nor the Soviet attempt was successful."

Society evolved but not human nature, at least not by much in 80 to 90 years. Greed, stupidity, arrogance, and hate triumph over cooperation, compromise, fraternity and accord. Words, but the first four words practically form the MAGA mantra.

People change far slower than in a century. A physicist here who moderates science shows on TV once commented: "The people 5,000 years ago weren't any dumber than we are. They simply haven't had access to information as we do now but their mindset wasn't much different."

That's the actual point: the ignorance of available information.

Moderator Note: This post is a copy from this thread - copied here to enable the Afghanistan discussion to have its own thread.

 

[morrobay]

I like to say: "I did not understand the US war in Afghanistan! I understood the desire to catch Bin Laden, but that didn't work that way, did it? I dare to claim that a phone call to London or Moscow would have been a lot cheaper! Both have tried with very modern armies at their point in time. Neither the British attempt nor the Soviet attempt was successful."

What did not work out was contracting the local militias for that task, instead of sending in US army rangers. ,(see bin laden in Tora Bora) . And invading Iraq after 9/11 would be like invading Finland after Pearl Harbor. Sure Saddam had to go. That's what .50 cal sniper teams are for. Millions of dollars and lives lost in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Is it a coincidence the VP Cheneys' Hallibuton war contracts made millions in the two wars. This war cabel of Bush ,Cheney ,Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz . Is certainly opposite to President Trump: Trump wants to stop the wasted billions of dollars from both Europe and the US. And the millions of lives lost and counting. I am not condoning the Russian invasion in Ukraine at all. But Putin is and always was going to get Eastern Ukraine. So that could have ended over three years ago. And no I do not subscribe to any domino effect. Especially the cost to Russia.

 

[dlu]

What did not work out was

breaking up the Middle East/Ottoman Empire into regions by secret deal France and England, with Russia and Italy in the know, while at the same time promising the Arab communities something different.

Sykes–Picot Agreement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some/most of the Arab resentment has landed in the lap of the US over the years as its world influence has increased, while the European's has waned. So the Evil Satan US came about- a transfer from those responsible to those having to now deal with it, especially post WW2.

 

[Klystron]

...Sure Saddam had to go. That's what .50 cal sniper teams are for..

Targeted assassinations raise unintended consequences. Replacement tyrants might be worse. Would the Ba'ath party coalesce around Uday Hussein or his odious younger brother?

Still, if the alternative invokes Rolling Thunder when the Earth erupts and the air burns, snipers and exploding drones appear benign by comparison. See also Operation Arc Light.

 

[Grinkle]

Thread created from posts that appeared here in order to help keep that thread on-topic and give this discussion its own thread.

 

[phinds]

Certainly the Biden withdrawal from Afghanistan was botched and a major black eye for the U.S. You can argue that it came about because of Trump's actions but the execrable implementation is all on Biden.

 

[Grinkle]

Brief thread lock for moderation.

 

[Grinkle]

Modified thread title per discussion with poster - the included content was about more than just Afghanistan. Unlocking.

 

[phinds]

@Klystron what part of my post are you skeptical about ? Please be specific.

 

[Klystron]

@Klystron what part of my post are you skeptical about ? Please be specific.

America'sinterminable war in Afghanistan began so long before Joe Biden or even Donald Trump were in office that I am skeptical that either one had much responsibility for the outcome, execrable or otherwise.

Compared to our exit from Southeast Asia in 1975 and subsequent disruptions in neighboring countries such as Cambodia, our even longer occupation of Afghanistan probably ended as well as could be expected given the lack of justification for invading.

 

[phinds]

America'sinterminable war in Afghanistan began so long before Joe Biden or even Donald Trump were in office that I am skeptical that either one had much responsibility for the outcome, execrable or otherwise.

Uh ... and who do you think ended that war and caused the execrable pullout fiasco, which is what I spoke of?

 

[Grinkle]

given the lack of justification for invading.

I have two very clear recollections of the military actions in that time period.

1. I felt very strongly that the US needed to remove the Afghani government by military force
2. I was convinced that there is no way Iraq had the capacity to produce WMD's, regardless of whether or not Saddam might want to, and I felt this invasion was motivated by Saddam's attempt on Bush the Elder's life and I was not in support of it

In hindsight, I now believe I was wrong that removing the Afghani government would make the world a safer place, and I still think the invasion of Iraq was misguided and should not have been undertaken.

That said, I don't know what other course of action I would have supported at the time regarding Afghanistan, even with the benefit of hindsight.

@Klystron What would you have done(wrt to Afghanistan or the region as a whole where the Taliban trained), had the decision been yours back then?

 

[phinds]

I was convinced that there is no way Iraq had the capacity to produce WMD's,

So, you don't consider mustard gas, which he used to gas some of his own people, is a WMD?

Now, the Bush admin clearly had it wrong, and very likely due to wishful thinking (they WANTED an excuse to invade), but Sadam clearly did have at least some capability.

 

[Grinkle]

you don't consider mustard gas

That's true, I wasn't considering mustard gas, and if I did, I wouldn't have considered that to be a threat to the US. My anecdotal recollection is that we in the US were discussing Anthrax and nukes, and primarily Anthrax as the direct threats that needed to be addressed.

Sadam clearly did have at least some capability.

Agreed, and mustard gas is considered a WMD, even if I wouldn't feel threatened by Saddam having it.

 

[Klystron]

Uh ... and who do you think ended that war and caused the execrable pullout fiasco, which is what I spoke of?

What fiasco? Trump dictated withdrawal terms before Biden took office. How should the Biden presidency have ended George Walker Bush's ill advised invasion of Afghanistan after the assassination of the Northern Alliance leadership?

 

[Pinball1970]

So, you don't consider mustard gas, which he used to gas some of his own people, is a WMD?

Now, the Bush admin clearly had it wrong, and very likely due to wishful thinking (they WANTED an excuse to invade), but Sadam clearly did have at least some capability.

Absolutely, the massacre of the Kurds in gas attacks in 1987 was a precursor to the Kuwait invasion.

 

[Klystron]

hindsight.

@Klystron What would you have done(wrt to Afghanistan or the region as a whole where the Taliban trained), had the decision been yours back then?

First some housekeeping: As far as I can tell I did not receive an alert when you nudged my username.

Interesting question. I am GW Bush after visiting the World Trade Center wreckage. I would summon good buddy Saudi Prince Bandar "Bush" to the White House and demand an explaination for his countrymen's attacks on the Unitied States.

"Bandar, good buddy, what the hale was you thinkin'? Afore I git you-all on a airplane back to A-rab-yah, you better 'fess up! Where you hidin' (fellow coutryman Usama) Bin Laden?".

Not being a dry-drunk semi-literate Texian third-generation oligarch, I probably would not invade a distant war-torn country known as the Graveyard of Empires. I might also ask my top-notch intelligence chiefs what happended to the last country to invade Afghanistan.

 

[phinds]

What fiasco? Trump dictated withdrawal terms before Biden took office. How should the Biden presidency have ended George Walker Bush's ill advised invasion of Afghanistan after the assassination of the Northern Alliance leadership?

WITHOUT requiring our military to abandon thousands of Afghans who helped us and who had been promised that we WOULD help them (mostly by relocating them to the US so they would not be killed by the Taliban, which many of them now have been).

 

[Grinkle]

Where you hidin' (fellow coutryman Usama) Bin Laden?

I expect Bush did just that. I guess you are saying you'd have done nothing, then?

Not that nothing is a worse choice, in retrospect, than the invasion we undertook. Its arguably the best choice we might have made at the time, given hindsight.

 

[Klystron]

Apropos Iraqi WMD, Saddam Hussein's cousin and brother-in-law, Hussein Kamel al Majid, contributed to a fascinating book once relatively safe* in Jordan, covering years of weapons development particularly atomics.

I will try to locate the title. The author was an Iraqi historian, collegue and student of Michel Foucault, presenting an unusual perspective on Iraqi research culture.

In a 21 September 1995 interview with CNN, Hussein Kamel explained:

This is what made me leave the country, the fact that Saddam Hussein surrounds himself with inefficient ministers and advisers who are not chosen for their competence but according to the whims of the Iraqi president. And as a result of this the whole of Iraq is suffering.

*Kamel died in a family gunfight a year after defecting.