Discuss the Impact of DOGE

[dlu]

These Venezuelan gang members would not be in the news at all. If you know what I mean.

Compare your statement to what DOGE is doing to people widespread Those people have committed no crime except to that of the accusation of being excess baggage, in a matter of speaking; and found guilty . No legal recourse, and apparently an associated stigma from neighbors, and even friends and family.
In time, the things that DOGE does and the way its being done can become a normalcy; that certain rights do not matter. Right now, in this case, rights of working people and aspects of the safety net, and can be overrun by fiat.
People should re-watch the movie about the bugs, Starship Troopers, but not from a perspective of fascism and how it can be fun.

 

[morrobay]

Compare your statement to what DOGE is doing to people widespread Those people have committed no crime except to that of the accusation of being excess baggage, in a matter of speaking; and found guilty . No legal recourse, and apparently an associated stigma from neighbors, and even friends and family.
In time, the things that DOGE does and the way its being done can become a normalcy; that certain rights do not matter. Right now, in this case, rights of working people and aspects of the safety net, and can be overrun by fiat.
People should re-watch the movie about the bugs, Starship Troopers, but not from a perspective of fascism and how it can be fun.

Can you give specific examples. I have no idea exactly what you are referring to. DOGE is going after billions of dollars wasted by various government departments. And by the way even Elizabeth Warren is on board. See full article. https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsr...a-doge-plan-to-make-government-more-efficient

 

[dlu]

Can you give specific examples. I have no idea exactly what you are referring to. DOGE is going after billions of dollars wasted by various government departments. And by the way even Elizabeth Warren is on board. See full article. https://www.warren.senate.gov/newsr...a-doge-plan-to-make-government-more-efficient

Warren is giving Musk proposals as a framework to act in a way in complete opposite to what he is doing. Musk eliminates regardless of efficiency. Warren proposes to look at programs on their merit, or lack therof, it would seem, rather than in Musk's ad hoc chainsaw brute manner.
Everyone is, and would, be in favour of less government expenditure, so sure Warren is on board with that.
Look at her proposals, though, very specific ( not willy nilly ) objectives to be planned out.
Have you heard of any planning stages or concrete objectives from Musk. Neither have I,

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/13/upshot/musk-doge-changes-deletions.html

for a list.
Note the article emphasizes numerous alterations, errors, additions, deletions ...
Employees fired and then called back, ...

 

[Grinkle]

@morrobay @dlu

A discussion specifically around DOGE started here and it was suggested to start a separate thread on DOGE.

I am moving the posts here to seed the discussion. I could have labelled this economics or law, I think, I chose law because that is the label of the other thread as well.

 

[Grinkle]

Throughout my career I saw my share of layoff cycles in corporate America, some better executed than others, both in terms of minimizing human impact and in terms of achieving business goals.

All of the below are coming from my own work experience, so no references included. I did not cherry pick these things to be able to say "Musk isn't doing any of them", but as I read my own list, I think the only one he's doing is "Once the decision is taken, do the layoff". If he's doing any of the others, its not visible to me.

For minimizing the human impact, I subjectively think Musk is doing an abysmal job. For achieving the business goals, the only goal he has stated is to trim 2T off the budget, I'd say that objectively he's doing an abysmal job; trimming things with minimal fiscal impact and getting no where near to 2T in savings and having communicated no roadmap showing how he plans to get there.

Things to do to minimize human impact, both on the folks being laid off and on the survivors include -

- Be clear and consistent in the motivation and goals of the layoffs
- Communicate the process that will be followed
- Communicate as early as possible
- Make sure to communicate when the layoffs are going to be over - 'those impacted will be notified by this time, all actions will be completed by this date' etc
- Treat people with dignity and respect - make sure to write down do's and don't for people communicating to the those impacted; its a very difficult communication to make and to hear, and most people are not naturally good at it. Always provide face to face one-on-one communication to those impacted

Things to do to maximize business benefit -

- Be very clear what the mission of the impacted organizations is to be post-layoff so that the list of impacted people can be created with this goal in mind
- Once the decision to do a layoff is taken, do the layoff. It will be hard - do not communicate that there will be a layoff and then back away from it because it is going to be hard (whatever hard means in the context of the specific layoff).
- Have metrics to assess the impact of the layoffs (has cost of doing business gone down, are business goals being met) so that whether or not the business goals were achieved by the layoffs will be assessed in a data driven manner as opposed to an emotional manner
- Do not, in general, ask for volunteers. This can often result in losing the people the business most wants to retain - those who are most skilled and can most easily find other work. An exception that I have seen be effective is to offer a bridge to retirement for folks who are anyway close to leaving the company.

 

[fresh_42]

I think DOGE is a euphemism to disguise deliberate decisions in favor of a few and erode of the Constitution.

 

[Grinkle]

@fresh_42 Because it seems impossible to see how to get anywhere remotely close to 2T with the approach being taken, and because surely Elon knows how to do arithmetic, I also don't see how to reach any other conclusion than your post #6 above.

 

[fresh_42]

It is extremely unsavory to read headlines like this in NYT:

Elon Musk’s Team Now Has Access to Treasury’s Payments System​

Elon Musk’s Team Now Has Access to Treasury’s Payments System

Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent gave Mr. Musk’s representatives at the so-called Department of Government Efficiency a powerful tool to monitor and potentially limit government spending.

www.nytimes.com

and

As Elon Musk makes thousands of federal workers jobless, tycoon pushes for $56B Tesla pay deal​

Elon Musk fights on for that huge $56B Tesla pay deal

: Not so much thrown under a bus as under an unwanted electric car

www.theregister.com

I'm not sure how reliable this source is, but all my searches on the issue were similarly unappetizingly. Despite the fact that some MAGA hardliners call(ed) me anti-American, I'm actually quite pro-American and it literally hurts to read such things. My overly idealized picture of the USA has been scattered by Trump and particularly by what politicians allow him to do.

 

[morrobay]

Let's not rush to judge . DOGE like the Trump administration has only had a few months. https://www.defense.gov/News/News-S...eveal-80-million-in-wasteful-spending-at-dod/

 

[fresh_42]

I think you should
a) relinquish judgments ("wasteful") in your posts since this means you confuse facts with opinions
b) reconsider your sources like that one here where the donkey called the burro an ass

You demand no judgment but you do exactly that!

 

[Salaman2]

There is not a single DOGE report, reviewed by OMB, to indicate DOGE has saved $1. If I error, please post the link to the GAO or OMB document.

Added today: As an example of the 'facts' concerning DOGE I am looking for, here is a link to a GAO report during the Biden four years (and prior) of government errors in spending. For DOGE to now claim they have found an order of magnitude increase of the last four years, that claim must be 'fact checked' by the GAO and OMB. See: https://www.gao.gov/blog/federal-government-made-236-billion-improper-payments-last-fiscal-year

 

[Salaman2]

A logical proposition on the true goal of DOGE:

https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/doges-real-goal-is-privatizing-government/

 

[Salaman2]

DOGE projected to reduce Federal IRS income by 500 billion by April 15th.

Not my words, but an internet summary of a Washington Post article I have edited. In the last 10 years, annual government waste has never exceeded the Federal income DOGE will eliminate in four months.

The Washington Post reports today that the IRS’s internal projections estimate that the DOGE-driven disruptions to the IRS since the inauguration are on track to have reduced tax receipts by more than $500 billion by April 15th. This, to be clear, is not a final tally. It’s not April 15th yet. It’s a projection based on historical data, the number of people who’ve filed, paid owed amounts of tax etc.

It’s worth taking a moment to put this number into some context in case half a trillion dollars doesn’t do it for you.

Non-defense discretionary spending is the cost to fund the US government once you take out mandatory spending (mostly Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid) and the cost of the US military. For 2023 that number was $917 billion. So that’s most of the stuff we think of as the government, apart from those payment programs and the military. In other words, in about eight weeks since January 20, DOGE managed to lose the US government more than half of what is projected for all non-defense discretionary spending for 2025.

 

[morrobay]

10 million dollars wasteful spending on transgender animal research. https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-animal-testing-research-house-oversight-committee-2030308

 

[morrobay]

Related wasteful government spending. https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/02/at-usaid-waste-and-abuse-runs-deep/

 

[Borg]

Related wasteful government spending. https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/02/at-usaid-waste-and-abuse-runs-deep/

Do you really think that anything coming from the White House can be trusted? Multiple items on that list have been proven to be false and/or misleading. For example:

Claims about USAID funding are spreading online. Many are not based on facts

False and misleading social media posts are circulating online as the Trump administration moves to dismantle the U.S. Agency for International Development.

apnews.com

USAID sent $2M to Guatemala, but not just for gender-affirming health care

Republican officials pointed to the $2 million grant as a waste of federal spending.

www.snopes.com

I have also seen articles where some of the USAID spending was actually spent by the State Department.

 

[Salaman2]

10 million dollars wasteful spending on transgender animal research. https://www.newsweek.com/transgender-animal-testing-research-house-oversight-committee-2030308

Reply from someone that understands the research being conducted:

Dr. Paul Locke, a professor at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, said at the hearing: "Scientific progress has given us better tools for toxicology and biomedical research, making animal testing increasingly outdated. Embracing these alternatives is a win-win—it reduces animal use while providing data that better reflects human health."

 

[dlu]

Dr. Locke submission at the committee:

https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/Locke-Written-Testimony.pdf

 

[Grinkle]

wasteful spending

wasteful government spending

I am fine myself with an administration deciding on its own what is wasteful - this is a subjective judgement with only a political burden-of-proof; by that I mean if the voters don't like what the administration deems wasteful, they can vote accordingly.

It would be a more interesting discussion imo if you would take some time to explain why you agree (being specific and showing that you took the time to find out what the end goal of the program actually was) that these things are wasteful.

 

[Salaman2]

To all concerned about 'wasteful' spending.

Please read the link in my Post #11, in particular the graph showing 'wasteful' spending by Federal governments under both political parties the past 10 years. No one disagrees that large government organizations spend money in ways that could be considered 'wasteful'. The same occurs in most (all?) private organizations, money is surely spent in 'wasteful' ways at Tesla for example.

In Post #11, the OMB has documented and published the 'wasteful' spending during the first four years of the Trump presidency... > 400 billion dollars of 'wasteful' spending, and not one word from President Trump about his wasteful ways over those years.

Why not? The logical answer is provided in post #12. The true goal of DOGE under the next four years of President Trump is to eliminate Federal agency programs and then make them private, hiding behind the easy media sell of waste. And who do we expect will be the new unelected owners of these powerful private entities that will regulate the lives of citizens in so many ways? I predict, as a hopefully untestable future hypothesis, their first action will be to do away with DOGE.

 

[morrobay]

I am fine myself with an administration deciding on its own what is wasteful - this is a subjective judgement with only a political burden-of-proof; by that I mean if the voters don't like what the administration deems wasteful, they can vote accordingly.

It would be a more interesting discussion imo if you would take some time to explain why you agree (being specific and showing that you took the time to find out what the end goal of the program actually was) that these things are wasteful.

From post # 15 link. This list seems self explanatory on wasteful spending. Regarding transgender research: Like I said I'm socially liberal. Gay marriage, cross dressing are personal choices. But during the Biden administration this transgender business became institutionalized. With a horror show of men in women's locker rooms, school bathrooms. Gender identity:,* if personal fine but this became political and caused legal issues. So I out of hand reject any thing related.,* Gender genetics:

Moderator note:

Edited out a claim that there exists a strict biological definition of M/F. This is not the right forum for a debate around science.

 

[Grinkle]

This list seems self explanatory on wasteful spending.

It isn't self explanatory to me.

Without knowing the end goal or mission statement of a program I wouldn't judge it either wasteful or worthwhile.

 

[Grinkle]

With a horror show of men in women's locker rooms, school bathrooms.

This requires a reference.

 

[Grinkle]

he graph showing 'wasteful' spending

There is a nuance here, that graph is showing mistaken over-payments, which is objectively wasteful. DOGE cuts are making subjective statements about what is wasteful. I couldn't find how much of those over-payments are recovered and what the recovery cost is - it would be interesting to know the net of that.

 

[morrobay]

This requires a reference.

Transgender People and Bathroom Access | A4TE

transequality.org

 

[gleem]

10 million dollars wasteful spending on transgender animal research.

@morrobay This is probably the same "wasteful" research that was reported in other news releases. Disinformation persists. The original DOGE notification of this research misread transgenic mice for transgender mice. Transgenic mice are mice whose DNA has been modified to produce certain gene expressions not to change their gender. If you read the abstracts of the research papers you will find they are reasonable.

One cannot depend on the releases of DOGE since they are intrinsically biased and scientifically ignorant. The same goes for their misinterpretations of data which they failed to understand, as the thousands of dead centenarians who were claimed to be receiving social security checks.

 

[Grinkle]

@morrobay

That link (post #25) is an article supporting the idea that we should not be concerned about a bathroom debate - it argues that letting people use the toilet they want to use is just fine.

I can't at all see how you get 'horror show' from that idea.

At university in the late 80's my dorm floor had only common-use (anyone can use) bathrooms. It was stalls-for-all, no urinals, and each shower had an attached and private changing area. We all used the toilets and the showers harmoniously and I attest to a complete absence of horror.

I don't see a connection to DOGE cuts in this sub-topic. If it draws more discussion, I'll move to its own thread.

 

[Borg]

@morrobay I don't think that you even remotely understand transgender issues. While some may decide to change their sex, many fall somewhere in between. The religious right loves to wave simplistic examples of an issue and declare it as a so-called horror show. It is the attitudes and behaviors of the hateful uninformed that is the real horror show. I never had any anomosity toward transgendered people but this article opened my eyes to the many issues that they face. Try reading the entire article as I did when it first came out.

Sex Redefined: The Idea of 2 Sexes Is Overly Simplistic

Biologists now think there is a larger spectrum than just binary female and male

www.scientificamerican.com

As for DOGE, I personally know many Federal employees who have been affected by the wreckless slash, burn and terrorize tactics of the administration. There isn't anything justifiable or noble about what they're doing. I also know some Federal employees who voted Republican and then got forced back to the office or had their agencies gutted. It's interesting how fast they changed their tune when they were the ones being singled out.

Finally, the current administration openly violates Democratic norms and the rule of law.
This site was created as a gathering place for those who are opposed to it. If you think that the administration is composed of many fine people that are doing a great job and that it's OK to violate the above in order to do that job, then perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

 

[dlu]

Regarding transgender research: Like I said I'm socially liberal. Gay marriage, cross dressing are personal choices. But during the Biden administration this transgender business became institutionalized. With a horror show of men in women's locker rooms, school bathrooms. Gender identity:,* if personal fine but this became political and caused legal issues.

The DEI movement began years ago. If i's a man's world, one could say as early as the suffragette movement around the world. Here is an expose, mainly British orientated. Relish the fact that 1000's of women were imprisoned for support of the cause. Nowadays, hardly anyone gives it a thought that woman should have the right to vote. *

Suffragette - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Forbes article:

The History of DEI: Why It’s Critical for Its Future Survival

Explore the history of DEI, its growth and challenges, and why it remains essential for organizational success. Learn why DEI is vital to the future of workplaces.

www.forbes.com

Note that here again the discrimination based on race, gender (male/female), religion, ethnicity, creed, disability, colour was not a valued social contract with members of society. At that time, when these became enshrined, a company may have listed itself as an Equal Opportunity employer. Everything fell into place and life went on.

With the present DEI concepts ( which, depending upon ones outlook, can be considered ill-advised, or a natural progression of rights and compensation for past wrongs of your grandfathers ) Biden has little to do with it. A President of the times, although the Democrats, Trudeau Liberals in Canada, and many other governments around the world do seem to have embraced the principle, which as you say ' became institutionalized'.

As for the transgender business , any questions on whether what is being done correctly could/would have one labelled as transphobic. For example, the question of administration of puberty blockers or surgery for minors, and advice given to parents with a troubled child taken in for diagnosis - no decent studies, but an experiment upon a young population of troubled teens, or younger . ( I do take Elon Musk at his word that he was lied to by the 'medical team' - thankfully it seems the daughter seems to be OK herself with her acquired gender ).

Had these social movements( not just the transgender ) been done with a little more thought, and with less aggression, less aggressively, less arrogantly , then it could quite be that cancelation of DEI, and the executive order of only 2 genders ( rather than 200 an counting, including animals ) would not have occurred. Usually its the whole that pays the price of just a few stupid loudmouths that want their way.


* Please note that within the Maga crowd, or it could from Project 2025, there is a few stupid 'loudmouths' ( but not so loud as to cause consternation ), that a woman's role in society, is for childbirth and raising a family, though having not thought through diligently themselves the implications, repercussions, and associations https://www.holocaust.org.uk/the-league-of-german-girls.

 

[dlu]

Try reading the entire article as I did when it first came out.

Would this this article be about physical genetic defects at birth, or gender dysphoria.