Eugenics and Genocide

[sbrothy]

<rant>

As a German, I am most angry about Vance and Musk. They don't get tired of accusing Germany of not respecting free speech. What they actually mean is that the German Nazis are not allowed to spread lies about the holocaust. Grok, does it, for example. And if I look up international ratings, I have to agree with a German cabaretist who said: "He should first clean up his own censorship front door!"

I am really angry. These two people do not know what they are talking about, yet it goes on and on. And to demonstrate what I mean ...

FIU Student Arrested After Asking Netanyahu to 'Drop Bombs' on Her Campus in a WhatsApp Chat She Called a Joke​

View attachment 1310

"A 23-year-old Florida International University student is facing a felony charge after two messages she sent in a 215-person student WhatsApp group chat drew a swift response from campus police and, eventually, a Miami-Dade bond court.

Gabriela Saldana was arrested in the early hours of 17 April 2026, hours after FIU campus police investigated a written threat transmitted to a large student group discussing a forthcoming event at the university's Ocean Bank Convocation Center.

She was taken to Turner Guilford Knight Correctional Center and appeared before Judge Mindy S. Glazer in bond court, where her bail was set at £3,960 ($5,000). The charge she faces, written threats to kill or do bodily harm under Florida Statute 836.10, is classified as a second-degree felony and carries a maximum penalty of 15 years in prison.

..."

Source (e.g.): https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fiu-student-faces-felony-charge-over-whatsapp-threats-1792626

I guess neither Gabriela nor Soldana is a name you should be punished with in the USA of today. They are what Isaac and Rosenbaum were once for the Nazis in Germany in the '30s.

I cannot wait until Trump has destroyed the last bit of American reputation, since I hope it will also destroy American hegemony and credibility. This hypocrisy about free speech is indeed hard for me to endure. At least we do not arrest people who make bad jokes.

"He [Vance] should first clean up his own censorship front door!"

</rant>

What is seldom mentioned is that the whole theory of eugenics started in the US. So, in biological terms it's phenotype was most obvious in Germany during the Hitler-regime but the genotype was "sown" - so to speak - in the US. Isn't that true also for phrenology?

EDIT2: phrenology is older.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. I didn't check any of this.

EDIT: Not completely wrong:

Eugenics, Academic Origins (Wiki)

 

[Patxitxi]

What is seldom mentioned is that the whole theory of eugenics started in the US. So, in biological terms it's phenotype was most obvious in Germany during the Hitler-regime but the genotype was "sown" - so to speak - in the US. Isn't that true also for phrenology?

EDIT2: phrenology is older.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. I didn't check any of this.

EDIT: Not completely wrong:

Eugenics, Academic Origins (Wiki)

You seem to be quite correct Sbrothy, Google (without even AI) makes a tidy summary using 5 different sites as follows:

Phrenology and eugenics are historically linked pseudosciences that used flawed, biologically deterministic methods to justify social hierarchy, racism, and discrimination. Phrenology (early 19th century) analyzed skull shapes to determine character, while eugenics (late 19th–20th century) promoted selective human breeding to "improve" hereditary traits. Both were used to uphold white supremacy, colonial rule, and justify horrors like forced sterilization and the Holocaust.

Phrenology (Early 19th Century)

• Origin: Developed by German physician Franz Joseph Gall (originally called "organology") and later termed phrenology by Johann Kaspar Spurzheim, it proposed that mental abilities are located in specific brain regions.
• Methodology: Practitioners (phrenologists) performed "cranioscopy" (reading skull shapes/bumps) to determine personality and intelligence.
• Usage: It was used to classify humans by race, promoting the idea that European features indicated higher intellect, while others signified degeneracy, directly justifying slavery and inequality.
• Discrediting: Largely discredited by the 1840s by scientists like Jean-Pierre Flourens, though it remained popular as a "practical" guide for some time.

Theory of Eugenics (Late 19th – Mid-20th Century)

• Origin: Coined by Sir Francis Galton, a cousin of Charles Darwin, who believed in improving the "human stock" through selective breeding.
• Concepts: Divided into "positive" (encouraging intelligent/healthy people to breed) and "negative" (preventing "unfit" people from breeding) eugenics.
• Impact: Influenced immigration laws, forced sterilization programs (notably in the U.S. and Europe) targeting disabilities and ethnic minorities.

Historical Connection and Legacy

• Precursors: Phrenologists were among the first to focus heavily on the inheritance of mental qualities, paving the way for later eugenicists.
• Scientific Racism: Both practices are critical examples of "scientific racism," where subjective prejudices were disguised as objective science.
• Long-Term Impact: While both are now considered pseudoscience, they caused profound social harm, including the justification for Nazi racial policies.
• Key figures in promoting these ideas included Franz Joseph Gall, Johann Kaspar Spurzheim, Orson Squire Fowler, and Sir Francis Galton

 

[sbrothy]

You seem to be quite correct Sbrothy, Google (without even AI) makes a tidy summary using 5 different sites as follows:

Phrenology and eugenics are historically linked pseudosciences that used flawed, biologically deterministic methods to justify social hierarchy, racism, and discrimination. Phrenology (early 19th century) analyzed skull shapes to determine character, while eugenics (late 19th–20th century) promoted selective human breeding to "improve" hereditary traits. Both were used to uphold white supremacy, colonial rule, and justify horrors like forced sterilization and the Holocaust.

Phrenology (Early 19th Century)

• Origin: Developed by German physician Franz Joseph Gall (originally called "organology") and later termed phrenology by Johann Kaspar Spurzheim, it proposed that mental abilities are located in specific brain regions.
• Methodology: Practitioners (phrenologists) performed "cranioscopy" (reading skull shapes/bumps) to determine personality and intelligence.
• Usage: It was used to classify humans by race, promoting the idea that European features indicated higher intellect, while others signified degeneracy, directly justifying slavery and inequality.
• Discrediting: Largely discredited by the 1840s by scientists like Jean-Pierre Flourens, though it remained popular as a "practical" guide for some time.

Theory of Eugenics (Late 19th – Mid-20th Century)

• Origin: Coined by Sir Francis Galton, a cousin of Charles Darwin, who believed in improving the "human stock" through selective breeding.
• Concepts: Divided into "positive" (encouraging intelligent/healthy people to breed) and "negative" (preventing "unfit" people from breeding) eugenics.
• Impact: Influenced immigration laws, forced sterilization programs (notably in the U.S. and Europe) targeting disabilities and ethnic minorities.

Historical Connection and Legacy

• Precursors: Phrenologists were among the first to focus heavily on the inheritance of mental qualities, paving the way for later eugenicists.
• Scientific Racism: Both practices are critical examples of "scientific racism," where subjective prejudices were disguised as objective science.
• Long-Term Impact: While both are now considered pseudoscience, they caused profound social harm, including the justification for Nazi racial policies.
• Key figures in promoting these ideas included Franz Joseph Gall, Johann Kaspar Spurzheim, Orson Squire Fowler, and Sir Francis Galton

And Denmark isn't innocent either. I seem to remember I posted elsewhere about the forced sterilization laws which I suspect is still in partial effect. (Perhaps rightly so, some people are - unfortunately, after all - unable to care for a child).

EDIT: I'm not sure if Down's Syndrome is a spectrum disorder like ADHD or Autism, but I'd suspect that this is one of the disorders targeted by such laws.

 

[sbrothy]

Forced Sterilization of Disabled People in the United States.

Disabled People Can Still Be Forcibly Sterilized in Over Half of the US.

Sterilization of Women and Girls with Disabilities.

OLD CASE (1986):

Woman With Down’s Syndrome Is Sterilized After Court Approves.


I'd be suprised if this didn't apply to Denmark too.

 

[sbrothy]

Yea

<rant>

As a German, I am most angry about Vance and Musk. They don't get tired of accusing Germany of not respecting free speech. What they actually mean is that the German Nazis are not allowed to spread lies about the holocaust. Grok, does it, for example. And if I look up international ratings, I have to agree with a German cabaretist who said: "He should first clean up his own censorship front door!"

I am really angry. These two people do not know what they are talking about, yet it goes on and on. And to demonstrate what I mean ...

FIU Student Arrested After Asking Netanyahu to 'Drop Bombs' on Her Campus in a WhatsApp Chat She Called a Joke​

View attachment 1310

"A 23-year-old Florida International University student is facing a felony charge after two messages she sent in a 215-person student WhatsApp group chat drew a swift response from campus police and, eventually, a Miami-Dade bond court.

Gabriela Saldana was arrested in the early hours of 17 April 2026, hours after FIU campus police investigated a written threat transmitted to a large student group discussing a forthcoming event at the university's Ocean Bank Convocation Center.

She was taken to Turner Guilford Knight Correctional Center and appeared before Judge Mindy S. Glazer in bond court, where her bail was set at £3,960 ($5,000). The charge she faces, written threats to kill or do bodily harm under Florida Statute 836.10, is classified as a second-degree felony and carries a maximum penalty of 15 years in prison.

..."

Source (e.g.): https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fiu-student-faces-felony-charge-over-whatsapp-threats-1792626

I guess neither Gabriela nor Soldana is a name you should be punished with in the USA of today. They are what Isaac and Rosenbaum were once for the Nazis in Germany in the '30s.

I cannot wait until Trump has destroyed the last bit of American reputation, since I hope it will also destroy American hegemony and credibility. This hypocrisy about free speech is indeed hard for me to endure. At least we do not arrest people who make bad jokes.

"He [Vance] should first clean up his own censorship front door!"

</rant>

Yeah, this is obviously kangaroo justice. Taking into account the social group dynamics (peer pressure), and perhaps her psychic disabilities, if any, it's a bit medieval. But then again the line has to be drawn somewhere and justice is notoriously rigid.

 

[sbrothy]

<rant>

As a German, I am most angry about Vance and Musk. They don't get tired of accusing Germany of not respecting free speech. What they actually mean is that the German Nazis are not allowed to spread lies about the holocaust. Grok, does it, for example. And if I look up international ratings, I have to agree with a German cabaretist who said: "He should first clean up his own censorship front door!"

I am really angry. These two people do not know what they are talking about, yet it goes on and on. And to demonstrate what I mean ...

FIU Student Arrested After Asking Netanyahu to 'Drop Bombs' on Her Campus in a WhatsApp Chat She Called a Joke​

View attachment 1310

"A 23-year-old Florida International University student is facing a felony charge after two messages she sent in a 215-person student WhatsApp group chat drew a swift response from campus police and, eventually, a Miami-Dade bond court.

Gabriela Saldana was arrested in the early hours of 17 April 2026, hours after FIU campus police investigated a written threat transmitted to a large student group discussing a forthcoming event at the university's Ocean Bank Convocation Center.

She was taken to Turner Guilford Knight Correctional Center and appeared before Judge Mindy S. Glazer in bond court, where her bail was set at £3,960 ($5,000). The charge she faces, written threats to kill or do bodily harm under Florida Statute 836.10, is classified as a second-degree felony and carries a maximum penalty of 15 years in prison.

..."

Source (e.g.): https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fiu-student-faces-felony-charge-over-whatsapp-threats-1792626

I guess neither Gabriela nor Soldana is a name you should be punished with in the USA of today. They are what Isaac and Rosenbaum were once for the Nazis in Germany in the '30s.

I cannot wait until Trump has destroyed the last bit of American reputation, since I hope it will also destroy American hegemony and credibility. This hypocrisy about free speech is indeed hard for me to endure. At least we do not arrest people who make bad jokes.

"He [Vance] should first clean up his own censorship front door!"

</rant>

She doesnt strike me as a student manufacturing TATP in her dorm room so "[...] An FIU student has been arrested for making a credible and imminent threat of violence at a planned university event [...]" (boldness mine) sounds to me a bit much.

---- https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fiu-student-faces-felony-charge-over-whatsapp-threats-1792626

EDIT: And then again: What does a rapist look like?

 

[fresh_42]

She doesnt strike me as a student manufacturing TATP in her dorm room so "[...] An FIU student has been arrested for making a credible and imminent threat of violence at a planned university event [...]" (boldness mine) sounds to me a bit much.

---- https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/fiu-student-faces-felony-charge-over-whatsapp-threats-1792626

EDIT: And then again: What do a rapist look like?

I don't know how it is in the States. If you arrest someone in Germany, you have to find a judge who issues an arrest warrant within a day or so. I'd bet you won't find any judge in Germany who would actually do this in such a case. A strict reminder not to post such things would do. OTOH, Germany is far from competitive with the USA when it comes to incarceration figures.






Translation: Everyone knows it, but hardly anyone dares to say it: Trump's USA and Netanyahu's Israel are no longer states governed by the rule of law, where human dignity and human rights are the highest values. They have become states of injustice, where arbitrariness, violence, and lawlessness openly show their ugly face.

Author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Todenhöfer

 

[Patxitxi]

And Denmark isn't innocent either. I seem to remember I posted elsewhere about the forced sterilization laws which I suspect is still in partial effect. (Perhaps rightly so, some people are - unfortunately, after all - unable to care for a child).

EDIT: I'm not sure if Down's Syndrome is a spectrum disorder like ADHD or Autism, but I'd suspect that this is one of the disorders targeted by such laws.

The Spanish Social Security (our universal health care scheme) performs screening tests for Down syndrome in the first trimester.
Our legislation allows voluntary termination of pregnancy in cases of fetal abnormalities under two assumptions: up to the 22nd week of gestation if there is a risk of serious abnormalities in the fetus, such as Down syndrome.
Some (mostly) Christian families opt not to terminate.
On the other hand since I didn't know the extent of the practices you described I was absolutely shocked when I asked Google to tell me which countries have documented histories of promoting or enacting sterilization for eugenic reasons:

• Sweden: Between 1934 and 1976, Sweden had an active state-run eugenics program that sterilized an estimated 21,000 to over 60,000 people against their will. The program targeted the "feeble-minded," those deemed "socially unsuitable," and those lacking "pure Nordic blood".
• United States: Forced sterilization was practiced in at least 30 states, with an estimated 60,000 to 70,000 people sterilized during the 20th century, particularly targeting the poor, minorities (including African Americans and Latinxs), and those with disabilities. California performed the highest number of these procedures.
• Germany: The Nazi regime (1933-1945) enforced sterilization on an estimated 400,000 to 600,000 people, aiming to cleanse the "German people" of those deemed "unworthy of life" (including mental patients, those with disabilities, and Roma).
• Canada: Widespread compulsory sterilization occurred in the early-to-mid 20th century (e.g., in Alberta and British Columbia), often targeting indigenous individuals, people with disabilities, and the socially disadvantaged.
• Other Nordic Countries: Denmark (1929–1967), Norway (1934), Finland (1935), and Iceland (1938) all passed laws permitting the sterilization of those deemed "mentally deficient".
• Japan: The 1940 "National Eugenic Law" and the later 1948 "Eugenic Protection Law" permitted involuntary sterilization of individuals with genetic diseases or criminal tendencies.
• Switzerland: Compulsory sterilization was practiced from the early 20th century until the 1970s, targeting people for genetic or social welfare reasons.
• Peru: In the 1990s, the administration of Alberto Fujimori ran a program of involuntary sterilization that targeted indigenous populations (Quechuas and Aymaras) as part of a "public health plan" to reduce poverty.
• South Korea: Between the 1970s and 1990s, military dictatorships enforced the sterilization of mentally ill or intellectually disabled individuals.

Scary reality I did not know had been so widespread.

 

[fresh_42]

I have seen in a TV documentary that the US also performed Hep experiments (I think IIRC it was Hep A) with inmates, after WWII.

 

[Patxitxi]

I don't know how it is in the States. If you arrest someone in Germany, you have to find a judge who issues an arrest warrant within a day or so. I'd bet you won't find any judge in Germany who would actually do this in such a case. A strict reminder not to post such things would do. OTOH, Germany is far from competitive with the USA when it comes to incarceration figures.



View attachment 1317


Translation: Everyone knows it, but hardly anyone dares to say it: Trump's USA and Netanyahu's Israel are no longer states governed by the rule of law, where human dignity and human rights are the highest values. They have become states of injustice, where arbitrariness, violence, and lawlessness openly show their ugly face.

Author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Todenhöfer

I agree whole heartedly with this gentlemen. I must say that I know one prrsident who has been saying this for weeks now and as a double spaniard before all the few things I am very proud of.
My country together with Ireland and Slovenia have formally requested that the European Union debate suspending its Association Agreement with Israel, citing concerns over human rights violations in Gaza. This push aims to review or suspend the trade pact, although the bloc remains divided, with countries like Germany opposing such actions.
Sadly it will not prosper.

 

[Patxitxi]

I have seen in a TV documentary that the US also performed Hep experiments (I think IIRC it was Hep A) with inmates, after WWII.

High Energy Physics??

 

[fresh_42]

High Energy Physics??

Picornavirales.

 

[sbrothy]

I agree whole heartedly with this gentlemen. [...]

At the risk of sounding like a sycophant the opinions from @fresh_42 are rarely far from my own. The facts too are seldom wrong.

Then again, our countries are geographical neighbors and the forum here does have a certain common denominator.

 

[fresh_42]

This push aims to review or suspend the trade pact, although the bloc remains divided, with countries like Germany opposing such actions.

Israel is a difficult subject for Germany. We owe them more than we could ever give.

 

[sbrothy]

The Spanish Social Security (our universal health care scheme) performs screening tests for Down syndrome in the first trimester.
Our legislation allows voluntary termination of pregnancy in cases of fetal abnormalities under two assumptions: up to the 22nd week of gestation if there is a risk of serious abnormalities in the fetus, such as Down syndrome.
Some (mostly) Christian families opt not to terminate.
On the other hand since I didn't know the extent of the practices you described I was absolutely shocked when I asked Google to tell me which countries have documented histories of promoting or enacting sterilization for eugenic reasons:

• Sweden: Between 1934 and 1976, Sweden had an active state-run eugenics program that sterilized an estimated 21,000 to over 60,000 people against their will. The program targeted the "feeble-minded," those deemed "socially unsuitable," and those lacking "pure Nordic blood".
• United States: Forced sterilization was practiced in at least 30 states, with an estimated 60,000 to 70,000 people sterilized during the 20th century, particularly targeting the poor, minorities (including African Americans and Latinxs), and those with disabilities. California performed the highest number of these procedures.
• Germany: The Nazi regime (1933-1945) enforced sterilization on an estimated 400,000 to 600,000 people, aiming to cleanse the "German people" of those deemed "unworthy of life" (including mental patients, those with disabilities, and Roma).
• Canada: Widespread compulsory sterilization occurred in the early-to-mid 20th century (e.g., in Alberta and British Columbia), often targeting indigenous individuals, people with disabilities, and the socially disadvantaged.
• Other Nordic Countries: Denmark (1929–1967), Norway (1934), Finland (1935), and Iceland (1938) all passed laws permitting the sterilization of those deemed "mentally deficient".
• Japan: The 1940 "National Eugenic Law" and the later 1948 "Eugenic Protection Law" permitted involuntary sterilization of individuals with genetic diseases or criminal tendencies.
• Switzerland: Compulsory sterilization was practiced from the early 20th century until the 1970s, targeting people for genetic or social welfare reasons.
• Peru: In the 1990s, the administration of Alberto Fujimori ran a program of involuntary sterilization that targeted indigenous populations (Quechuas and Aymaras) as part of a "public health plan" to reduce poverty.
• South Korea: Between the 1970s and 1990s, military dictatorships enforced the sterilization of mentally ill or intellectually disabled individuals.

Scary reality I did not know had been so widespread.

As you start to search for laws like these and human experimentation it becomes more and more scary.

 

[sbrothy]

Israel is a difficult subject for Germany. We owe them more than we could ever give.

Indeed. Thought at some point (I don't know if the criteria is met yet.) you'd expect the debt to be paid. Especially when looking critically at their own actions as a state.

 

[dlu]

Scary reality I did not know had been so widespread.

Those are the countries that 'documented' to some extent the procedures that resulted in sterilization so that some data could be obtained, even if not recorded at the time of surgery, so that it looks as if the practice was only evident in the western world.. In others, data is difficult to come by.
It was/is more widespread across the world.
Such regulations such as one,, or two, child policies should also be included as forced sterilization.

And, the proponents in favour of forced sterilization can always find a way/
To change ones gender legally, and obtain the documents, individuals were required to removal of offending body parts in countries that allowed the change, In other words, one had to show sterilization.

One can feel either way as to the transgender rights as being right or wrong, or necessary. But it was common ideology in NA and European countries and others not just a few years back that forced sterilization was a condition for the individuals to show their new gender.

And there were the helpful proponents for transgender rights of the time that devised these policies.

An 'open wound': Europe's trans community reckons with decades of sterilisation requirements

Thousands of trans people across Europe were pushed towards invasive surgery under national ‘sterility’ laws, exclusive Investigate Europe analysis reveals.

www.investigate-europe.eu

 

[dlu]

Yea

Yeah, this is obviously kangaroo justice. Taking into account the social group dynamics (peer pressure), and perhaps her psychic disabilities, if any, it's a bit medieval. But then again the line has to be drawn somewhere and justice is notoriously rigid.

Because what she said is deemed offensive. I find it offensive and I do not live anywhere near . Considering some of the laws being contemplated being passed against hate crimes in some jurisdictions, remarks deemed offensive by a person, group, or government can and will be met with the full force of the law.
Florida, considered a right wing state, still has that mentality thrust upon it and has acted accordingly, surpassing any rhetorical hyperbole defense for not making an arrest, instead relying upon investigation of possible destructive behavior. The thought police in action wherby the act of destructive behavior will not do someone in, but the mere thought or expression of said thought.
Right wing describe it as keeping you safe from harm, all the while allowing utterances of harm .
Left wing describe it as keeping you safe from harm, by dissallowing utterances of harm.
Both meet in the middle in authoritarian states with the production of fear in the population.

 

[sbrothy]

Israel is a difficult subject for Germany. We owe them more than we could ever give.

Supporting Israel is not very politically correct, but I understand that they're beyond tired of Hamas. But you try to voice that opinion at a Palestinian demonstration....

 

[fresh_42]

We must not forget that the event that caused all this was the one with the highest number of casualties since the Holocaust.

This should not justify what's going on in detail, but it shows the trauma for which Hamas is responsible. My main problem with accusations of Israel's warfare is that they tend to forget who the victim is and who the perpetrator is. It may be an overreaction by Israel now, but Hamas caused all this. And the Palestinian people celebrated it on the streets! As long as such a habit is shown, as long as they don't have a right to complain.

 

[sbrothy]

See @fresh_42 ? I'm pretty sure our opinions are pretty close except for some technicalities. What I don't understand is why a lot of my fellow Danes has these old-fashioned ideas about Germany. Come one! It's been several generations by now!

 

[sbrothy]

We must not forget that the event that caused all this was the one wth the highest number of casualties since the Holocaust.

This should not justify what's going on in detail, but it shows the trauma for which Hamas is responsible. My main problem with accusations of Israel's warfare is that they tend to forget who the victim is and who the perpetrator is. It may be an overreaction by Israel now, but Hamas caused all this. And the Palestinian people celebrated it on the streets! As long as such a habit is shown, as long as they don't have a right to complain.

Yes, and the Palestinians never voted for Hamas in a free election. I have a feeling that the "demonstrations" you mention aren't that voluntary.

EDIT: Then you say so out loud and quite clearly.

 

[sbrothy]

I haven't been following economics for several years but I have a suspicion that Germany is still Europe's powerhouse. Germany was (and possibly still is) Denmark's worst deficit on the tradebalance. Too much import, not enough export.

EDIT: OK, I stand corrected I think. My information was too old it seems.

I'm glad.

Denmark Top Trading Partners.

In the old days (start of the nineties) it was England who was top importer and Germany who was bottom. Just goes to show how out of touch I am.

 

[sbrothy]

I don't know how it is in the States. If you arrest someone in Germany, you have to find a judge who issues an arrest warrant within a day or so. I'd bet you won't find any judge in Germany who would actually do this in such a case. A strict reminder not to post such things would do. OTOH, Germany is far from competitive with the USA when it comes to incarceration figures.



View attachment 1317


Translation: Everyone knows it, but hardly anyone dares to say it: Trump's USA and Netanyahu's Israel are no longer states governed by the rule of law, where human dignity and human rights are the highest values. They have become states of injustice, where arbitrariness, violence, and lawlessness openly show their ugly face.

Author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jürgen_Todenhöfer

Today a 17 year old (missing 2 weeks before 18) "psychopath" had his court day. The family to the girl (13!) he murdered (grisly I might add, with a concrete brick, asphyxiation and rape), got out of what Denmark calls "forvaring" (read: incarceration until psychiatrists deem you a non-threat). Instead he got 12 years. The stepfather had a fit. The judges had to be removed because the aggression could be physically felt all the way up there.

The reason is because we don't use jurys. In this case 6 [sic!] judges came to a stalemate (and why?! why not use an odd number so a stalemate can't occur?). The reached a stalemate in which case the most lenient punishment counts.

What kind of weird system is that?

 

[fresh_42]

Yes, and the Palestinians never voted for Hamas in a free election. I have a feeling that the "demonstrations" you mention aren't that voluntary.

That's a difficult question. Hamas was (is?) deeply interwoven in the society there. Besides politics, their members are in public positions in the police, administration, and so on. It is hard to draw a line, especially from far away. It raises the question that is the origin of this whole forum:

"Is it allowed to blame an entire society if it tolerates a tyrannical government?"

The USA is currently closer than ever to starting a (finally) global nuclear war. Are we allowed to blame Americans, or are they as incapable of changing it as we others are? I don't think they can be given absolution. Particularly, as they did it twice, and they failed to address all the crimes against humanity, thinking about the artificially created orphans already in the years after 2016. They all know about the current corruption and insider trading, and I think this is still a crime in the USA, but they do nothing about it.

So, where is the Palestinian outcry against Hamas? Where is the civil disobedience? Did they ever demand the release of the hostages? Not that I would have noticed.

Germany has been in a similar situation. But I know of at least two - unfortunately failed - attempts to assassinate Hitler. And, as you mentioned above, there are still people who blame us, more than 80 years later.
"I couldn't do anything about it and had to obey orders" wasn't accepted as an excuse in Nuremberg, and it shouldn't be accepted nowadays.

 

[sbrothy]

OTOH, The US has nothing on Spain. I read that 4 members of ETA in 1991 (or possibly 1993) got 2230 years jailtime each for a bomb which killed less people than Brevik killed. And he got 21 (although he'll always be survellied.)

 

[sbrothy]

That's a difficult question. Hamas was (is?) deeply interwoven in the society there. Besides politics, their members are in public positions in the police, administration, and so on. It is hard to draw a line, especially from far away. It raises the question that is the origin of this whole forum:

"Is it allowed to blame an entire society if it tolerates a tyrannical government?"

The USA is currently closer than ever to starting a (finally) global nuclear war. Are we allowed to blame Americans, or are they as incapable of changing it as we others are? I don't think they can be given absolution. Particularly, as they did it twice, and they failed to address all the crimes against humanity, thinking about the artificially created orphans already in the years after 2016. They all know about the current corruption and insider trading, and I think this is still a crime in the USA, but they do nothing about it.

So, where is the Palestinian outcry against Hamas? Where is the civil disobedience? Did they ever demand the release of the hostages? Not that I would have noticed.

Germany has been in a similar situation. But I know of at least two - unfortunately failed - attempts to assassinate Hitler. And, as you mentioned above, there are still people who blame us, more than 80 years later.
"I couldn't do anything about it and had to obey orders" wasn't accepted as an excuse in Nuremberg, and it shouldn't be accepted nowadays.

Yes I know. They run hospitals too. But that is just one of the reasons the people have no real choice. In my humble opinion.

What did they expect to gain from the last attack?

 

[fresh_42]

What I don't understand is why a lot of my fellow Danes has these old-fashioned ideas about Germany.

At least they are building bridges now: Femern Bælt-tunnelen, and we have the Sydslesvigsk Vælgerforening. Small steps, but steps in the right direction.

 

[Patxitxi]

Supporting Israel is not very politically correct, but I understand that they're beyond tired of Hamas. But you try to voice that opinion at a Palestinian demonstration....

We spaniards were indeed "beyond tired" of ETA but it never crossed anybody's mind ever, to carpet bomb Bilbao.
After murdering more than 70,000 people (of which 70% female and baby terrorists) Israel will never know true peace.
If only because after some guys exterminated all you family and friends your ONLY OBJECTIVE for the rest of your life would be to grow strong enough to kill as many Israelis as you can.
Before the only way they could fight the occupation against the combined Israeli and USA war machine was terrorism.
Now Israel has only generated even more terrorists.
Thus Israel's obsessive objective of trying to perpetrate genocide.
Nazi germany did not succeed,
Israel won't either.
Long after we are all dead this unequal fight will continue while everybody else watches in the sidelines ...
The only winners are weapons manufacturers
Sad.

 

[fresh_42]

We spaniards were indeed "beyond tired" of ETA but it never crossed anybody's mind ever, to carpet bomb Bilbao.

Don't open this subject! The Guardia Civil is far from being innocent. And Eta never murdered 5,000 people in Madrid, because that's what you compare it to! Not to mention the mass muderers under Franco.