Eugenics and Genocide

[sbrothy]

We spaniards were indeed "beyond tired" of ETA but it never crossed anybody's mind ever, to carpet bomb Bilbao.
After murdering more than 70,000 people (of which 70% female and baby terrorists) Israel will never know true peace.
If only because after some guys exterminated all you family and friends your ONLY OBJECTIVE for the rest of your life would be to grow strong enough to kill as many Israelis as you can.
Before the only way they could fight the occupation against the combined Israeli and USA war machine was terrorism.
Now Israel has only generated even more terrorists.
Thus Israel's obsessive objective of trying to perpetrate genocide.
Nazi germany did not succeed,
Israel won't either.
Long after we are all dead this unequal fight will continue while everybody else watches in the sidelines ...
The only winners are weapons manufacturers
Sad.

Ah yes. Then it makes more sense. We don't hear much Spanish news up here unless it's Islamic terror or a drunken train driver. Ironically the Basque flag looks like Dannebrog (the Danish flag, which we wave with at every opportunity we get, for some reason.) but with an extra green X.

 

[sbrothy]

Don't open this subject! The Guardia Civil is far from being innocent. And Eta never murdered 5,000 people in Madrid, because that's what you compare it to! Not to mention the mass muderers under Franco.

Oof, talk about a can of worms. This should perhaps have it's own thread?

 

[sbrothy]

Oof, talk about a can of worms. This should perhaps have it's own thread?

I was just about to say: Don't mention Franco but you already did.

 

[sbrothy]

Carlos Giménez (comics) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Isn't he the one with the graphic novels about the orphanages under Franco. Truly Rumania-level horror.

Yeah:

Paracuellos

With a preface by Will Eisner. Paracuellos is a work of…

www.goodreads.com

It is arguably the most important graphic memoir ever created in comics.

Perhaps a slight exaggeration, but it's a gem alright.

 

[sbrothy]

Don't open this subject! The Guardia Civil is far from being innocent. And Eta never murdered 5,000 people in Madrid, because that's what you compare it to! Not to mention the mass muderers under Franco.

The topic is massively subjective. Like the Troubles in Ireland. I'm sure living on one side of the front and experiencing terror and propaganda colors one's opinion. I wont judge.

 

[Patxitxi]

Ah yes. Then it makes more sense. We don't hear much Spanish news up here unless it's Islamic terror or a drunken train driver. Ironically the Basque flag looks like Dannebrog (the Danish flag, which we wave with at every opportunity we get, for some reason.) but with an extra green X.

Well... Let me see... we have Hispanic gang terror, we have sexist arseholes killing "their women" as if they were their property, we have the "new" extreme right wing cooking the concept of "prioridad nacional" cooked with center right equivalent to "America first", nationwide blackouts and train infrastructures falling to pieces because of lack of investment and many more turists and locals using it...

But at least we spainards have been world leaders in donation and transplantation for 34 consecutive years, we are regularizing ca. half a million inmigrants (note that 20% of the Spanish inhabitants are foreigners) which are already wirking here.

So we have lights snd very deep shadows but we don't avoid eirds as genocide and trump when we talk (well at least some of us don't).

 

[fresh_42]

Your username is quite irritating if you say ...

But at least we spainards ...

... as it sounds Basque to me.

[Civil War] The root cause of the explosion of the conflict, however, lies in the Spanish Civil War. The victor of the Spanish Civil War, General Franco, was a fervent nationalist who implemented the "One Spain" policy, which the military had championed for centuries. This policy refused to grant the regions even the slightest autonomy in political, cultural, or linguistic matters, as it was seen as a threat to Spanish unity. Against this backdrop, the suppression of Basque culture was pursued relentlessly. Basques were forbidden from speaking their language and, among other things, barred from holding high public office.

[Guernica] The bombs, the manhunt by the fighter planes, and the subsequent massive fire killed 300 people instantly and destroyed about 80 percent of all buildings, including the train station and an olive factory, whose fire resulted in dense clouds of smoke and impaired the accuracy of later attack waves.

ETA is responsible for approximately 800 deaths, many of them among the Guardia Civil who tortured prisoners. Now, imagine they had slaughtered 5,500 civilians in Zaragoza in a single event, including women, children, and had raped many and kidnapped around 500 of them. This is the dimension you have to compare it to. (When scaled to the population size, we have a scaling factor of approximately 5.)
_______________

@Borg, Maybe we could move all posts from #372 on into a separate thread, since they are somewhat off-topic discussions. Unfortunately, they are quite vivid and already around 40 posts, so they shouldn't be deleted. Also, they are on different topics, so they are hard to separate. My suggestion would therefore be a thread titled "European Political Landscape and History" in the "General Political Discussion" forum, but you may well find a better title.

 

[sbrothy]

That's a difficult question. Hamas was (is?) deeply interwoven in the society there. Besides politics, their members are in public positions in the police, administration, and so on. It is hard to draw a line, especially from far away. It raises the question that is the origin of this whole forum:

"Is it allowed to blame an entire society if it tolerates a tyrannical government?"

The USA is currently closer than ever to starting a (finally) global nuclear war. Are we allowed to blame Americans, or are they as incapable of changing it as we others are? I don't think they can be given absolution. Particularly, as they did it twice, and they failed to address all the crimes against humanity, thinking about the artificially created orphans already in the years after 2016. They all know about the current corruption and insider trading, and I think this is still a crime in the USA, but they do nothing about it.

So, where is the Palestinian outcry against Hamas? Where is the civil disobedience? Did they ever demand the release of the hostages? Not that I would have noticed.

Germany has been in a similar situation. But I know of at least two - unfortunately failed - attempts to assassinate Hitler. And, as you mentioned above, there are still people who blame us, more than 80 years later.
"I couldn't do anything about it and had to obey orders" wasn't accepted as an excuse in Nuremberg, and it shouldn't be accepted nowadays.

Yeah, it's difficult. The generation before us probably thought the current system is the most just.

 

[sbrothy]

Well... Let me see... we have Hispanic gang terror, we have sexist arseholes killing "their women" as if they were their property, we have the "new" extreme right wing cooking the concept of "prioridad nacional" cooked with center right equivalent to "America first", nationwide blackouts and train infrastructures falling to pieces because of lack of investment and many more turists and locals using it...

But at least we spainards have been world leaders in donation and transplantation for 34 consecutive years, we are regularizing ca. half a million inmigrants (note that 20% of the Spanish inhabitants are foreigners) which are already wirking here.

So we have lights snd very deep shadows but we don't avoid eirds as genocide and trump when we talk (well at least some of us don't).

Ironically, once the entire world was split up between Portugal and Spain. I forget the name of the deal. But still... The entire world?

 

[fresh_42]

Ironically, once the entire world was split up between Portugal and Spain. I forget the name of the deal. But still... The entire world?

Treaty of Tordesillas



But to be honest, it mostly affected South America and some colonies rather than the entire world. If we want to discuss global colonialism, we certainly have to speak about the British Empire.

 

[sbrothy]

What a cozy name for a splinter-thread. I get it though!

/me Rubs his hands and expects a field day!

 

[sbrothy]

Treaty of Tordesillas

View attachment 1328

But to be honest, it mostly affected South America and some colonies rather than the entire world. If we want to discuss global colonialism, we certainly have to speak about the British Empire.

Oh yeah. "The White Man's Burden."....

 

[sbrothy]

And let us not forget Australia. Where the white criminals "didn't know" that murdering the aborigines was a crime. And the program with removing children en masse from them "because they'd forget it soon"....

EDIT: It screams to high heaven!

 

[sbrothy]

Your username is quite irritating if you say ...



... as it sounds Basque to me.



ETA is responsible for approximately 800 deaths, many of them among the Guardia Civil who tortured prisoners. Now, imagine they had slaughtered 5,500 civilians in Zaragoza in a single event, including women, children, and had raped many and kidnapped around 500 of them. This is the dimension you have to compare it to. (When scaled to the population size, we have a scaling factor of approximately 5.)
_______________

@Borg, Maybe we could move all posts from #372 on into a separate thread, since they are somewhat off-topic discussions. Unfortunately, they are quite vivid and already around 40 posts, so they shouldn't be deleted. Also, they are on different topics, so they are hard to separate. My suggestion would therefore be a thread titled "European Political Landscape and History" in the "General Political Discussion" forum, but you may well find a better title.

I just can't pronounce it. Even internally. And I thought mine was difficult!

Are the Xs to be pronouced as Hs or Ss?

 

[fresh_42]

And I thought mine was difficult!

Nej, ... not as long as you haven't inserted Æ, Ø, or Å.

I was surprised to read ...

Danish exerted a strong influence on Old English and thus on modern English during the Middle Ages, as parts of Anglo-Saxon East Anglia (Danelaw) were occupied by the Great Heathen Army, which originated in part from Denmark, and subsequently settled permanently; genetically, these loanwords are hardly distinguishable from Norwegian loanwords. Often in modern English, the Scandinavian loanword and the inherited Old English word exist side by side, with the inherited word being semantically restricted or otherwise specialized. Examples include: Danish *dø* 'to die' → English *die* (in addition, *starve* 'to die of hunger, to starve'), Old Danish *take* (or Modern Danish *tage*) 'to take' → English *die*. take (also: nim 'to pilfer, steal'; numb 'dazed, numb, off the finger'), Danish kaste 'to throw' → English cast (also: warp 'to throw, warp, off the wood'), Danish sky 'cloud' → English sky 'sky', archaic 'cloud' (also: heaven 'sky in the religious sense'). Further examples are they, them, their 'they (plural), them (object), their (possessive)', which spread from north to south during the Middle English period (the modern colloquial 'em continues the autochthonous hem, which goes back to Old English), are '[we, they] are, [you] are', anger 'anger', bark 'bark', call 'to call', egg 'egg', get 'to get' (the West Germanic languages otherwise only have the opposite forget 'to forget'), gosling 'young goose', ill 'sick', knife 'knife', leg 'leg', root 'root', rotten 'rotten', skin 'skin', ugly 'ugly', until, till 'until', wing 'wing'. The Scandinavian loanwords are most prevalent in the dialects of Northern England and the East Midlands, and through the standardization of the East Midland dialect, they have found their way into today's standard language.

Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dänische_Sprache#Danismen

I have just seen a stand-up comedy clip in which Trevor Noah more or less mocked the English accents of foreigners, e.g., Russians. Why don't I see mockeries of the hundreds of mispronounced foreign words by English-speaking people? I also saw a video post from Leonard Susskind (about gravity), which definitely once had been Süßkind. At least he said Niels Bohr and not Niles. Schrödinger or Ångström are factually unpronounceable in English.

 

[sbrothy]

Nej, ... not as long as you haven't inserted Æ, Ø, or Å.

I was surprised to read ...



Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dänische_Sprache#Danismen

I have just seen a stand-up comedy clip in which Trevor Noah more or less mocked the English accents of foreigners, e.g., Russians. Why don't I see mockeries of the hundreds of mispronounced foreign words by English-speaking people? I also saw a video post from Leonard Susskind (about gravity), which definitely once had been Süßkind. At least he said Niels Bohr and not Niles. Schrödinger or Ångström are factually unpronounceable in English.

Hah. but not surprising when you consider how many times the vikings ravaged GB. "Pillage then burn"! Skt Canute's cathedral is the biggest one in my town. (Which is named after Odin, ironically): Odense.

EDIT: >1000 years old too. The city I mean.

 

[sbrothy]

I don't think the language thing is so surprising. During the 30-years (or 100-years) war (I forget which came last), it was normal for Europeans to be able to speak to one another using a mixture of German and nordic.

EDIT: The borders put a stop to that. Even though EU will have us believe that they just opened it all up.

EDIT2: "Plat-tysk" is the name in Danish. It's not a nice word.

 

[sbrothy]

Nej, ... not as long as you haven't inserted Æ, Ø, or Å.

I was surprised to read ...



Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dänische_Sprache#Danismen

I have just seen a stand-up comedy clip in which Trevor Noah more or less mocked the English accents of foreigners, e.g., Russians. Why don't I see mockeries of the hundreds of mispronounced foreign words by English-speaking people? I also saw a video post from Leonard Susskind (about gravity), which definitely once had been Süßkind. At least he said Niels Bohr and not Niles. Schrödinger or Ångström are factually unpronounceable in English.

I must admit I wouldn't pronounce Niels as Niles but rather Nils. He was a giant though. He has both a professorate and a house you're supposed to inhabit when you get it. But like Ørsted (There was an Ø!) whom I've come to think of as a little like Edison, at least Bohr had discussions with Einstein.

I'm not a fan of the Copenhagen-interpretation though.

 

[sbrothy]

Holy moly I talk like a 17 year old girl. I'll take a break.

 

[Patxitxi]

Ironically, once the entire world was split up between Portugal and Spain. I forget the name of the deal. But still... The entire world?

Maybe the entire world available for the spoil?
Nah... not even that!
Many parts Asia and Africa were also available for the same purposes.

 

[Patxitxi]

Your username is quite irritating if you say ...



... as it sounds Basque to me.



ETA is responsible for approximately 800 deaths, many of them among the Guardia Civil who tortured prisoners. Now, imagine they had slaughtered 5,500 civilians in Zaragoza in a single event, including women, children, and had raped many and kidnapped around 500 of them. This is the dimension you have to compare it to. (When scaled to the population size, we have a scaling factor of approximately 5.)
_______________

@Borg, Maybe we could move all posts from #372 on into a separate thread, since they are somewhat off-topic discussions. Unfortunately, they are quite vivid and already around 40 posts, so they shouldn't be deleted. Also, they are on different topics, so they are hard to separate. My suggestion would therefore be a thread titled "European Political Landscape and History" in the "General Political Discussion" forum, but you may well find a better title.

First whatever my name sounds like it's quite irrelevant for the discussion and incidentaly I am exactly 50% basque, the other 50%, taking into account my family name "Español" is a toponymic, is most likely jewish or muslim or both from the times of the Catholic Kings". But then again I insist this is irrelevant for the discussion.

You are missing my point we are in the 21st century and a country that claims to be the only real democracy in the Middle East has resorted to genocide (still resort to it in Lebanon) because they have terrorist attack them.
We are not talking about dictators like Franco or Hitler.
We are also talking about the biggest bully in the world that their own interior Democrats are calling "the king" using exactly the same strategies.
You are justifying carpet bombing as a response to terrorism.
You are justifying 90% "colateral damage" as a solution to terrorism in a "democratic".
At least (the never proven) state driven Baader-Meinhof "suicide" was a targeted "solution".
We are silent when a "democratic" power kills in a surgical attack the guys negotiating the peace talks in Oman was it?
Not calling what Israel is doing genocide allows the perpetrators to keep on doing it.
Not calling this an illegal war against Iran (no matter how much we loath the Iranian regime) allows the perpetrators to bypass all International Law conventions including the International Court.
The only reason Palestine and Iran are perceived as terrorists is that they do not have the military might of the US and Israel, neither have they t
nuclear power like this two countries...
Otherwise this probably would have started World War III .
As a matter of fact it could be said that then again spaniards (vasques included) invented terrorism only that historians came to call this "guerrilla warfare".
This band of roaming fighters did not have the might of the French Imperial armies.
See below what is clearly a terrorist child and a tank "defending" a democratic regime.
Silence kills.

Mod edit - fixed font color. I have no idea why your posts are consistently ending with black-on-black font color.

 

[Patxitxi]

First whatever my name sounds like it's quite irrelevant for the discussion and incidentaly I am exactly 50% basque, the other 50%, taking into account my family name "Español" is a toponymic, is most likely jewish or muslim or both from the times of the Catholic Kings". But then again I insist this is irrelevant for the discussion.

You are missing my point we are in the 21st century and a country that claims to be the only real democracy in the Middle East has resorted to genocide (still resort to it in Lebanon) because they have terrorist attack them.
We are not talking about dictators like Franco or Hitler.
We are also talking about the biggest bully in the world that their own interior Democrats are calling "the king" using exactly the same strategies.
You are justifying carpet bombing as a response to terrorism.
You are justifying 90% "colateral damage" as a solution to terrorism in a "democratic".
At least (the never proven) state driven Baader-Meinhof "suicide" was a targeted "solution".
We are silent when a "democratic" power kills in a surgical attack the guys negotiating the peace talks in Oman was it?
Not calling what Israel is doing genocide allows the perpetrators to keep on doing it.
Not calling this an illegal war against Iran (no matter how much we loath the Iranian regime) allows the perpetrators to bypass all International Law conventions including the International Court.
The only reason Palestine and Iran are perceived as terrorists is that they do not have the military might of the US and Israel, neither have they t
nuclear power like this two countries...
Otherwise this probably would have started World War III .
As a matter of fact it could be said that then again spaniards (vasques included) invented terrorism only that historians came to call this "guerrilla warfare".
This band of roaming fighters did not have the might of the French Imperial armies.
See below what is clearly a terrorist child and a tank "defending" a democratic regime.
Silence kills.

Let stand by our mottos.
Even if we are not intellectuals.
"It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies." - Noam Chomsky

 

[sbrothy]

First whatever my name sounds like it's quite irrelevant for the discussion and incidentaly I am exactly 50% basque, the other 50%, taking into account my family name "Español" is a toponymic, is most likely jewish or muslim or both from the times of the Catholic Kings". But then again I insist this is irrelevant for the discussion.

You are missing my point we are in the 21st century and a country that claims to be the only real democracy in the Middle East has resorted to genocide (still resort to it in Lebanon) because they have terrorist attack them.
We are not talking about dictators like Franco or Hitler.
We are also talking about the biggest bully in the world that their own interior Democrats are calling "the king" using exactly the same strategies.
You are justifying carpet bombing as a response to terrorism.
You are justifying 90% "colateral damage" as a solution to terrorism in a "democratic".
At least (the never proven) state driven Baader-Meinhof "suicide" was a targeted "solution".
We are silent when a "democratic" power kills in a surgical attack the guys negotiating the peace talks in Oman was it?
Not calling what Israel is doing genocide allows the perpetrators to keep on doing it.
Not calling this an illegal war against Iran (no matter how much we loath the Iranian regime) allows the perpetrators to bypass all International Law conventions including the International Court.
The only reason Palestine and Iran are perceived as terrorists is that they do not have the military might of the US and Israel, neither have they t
nuclear power like this two countries...
Otherwise this probably would have started World War III .
As a matter of fact it could be said that then again spaniards (vasques included) invented terrorism only that historians came to call this "guerrilla warfare".
This band of roaming fighters did not have the might of the French Imperial armies.
See below what is clearly a terrorist child and a tank "defending" a democratic regime.
Silence kills.

I must admit that you're right. Making fun of your name might be funny(?), but definitely irrelevant.

EDIT: You have an interesting family history compared to mine! At least what I know of it.

 

[sbrothy]

Let stand by our mottos.
Even if we are not intellectuals.
"It is the responsibility of intellectuals to speak the truth and expose lies." - Noam Chomsky

Chomsky is also a favorite of mine.

EDIT: Reminds me of the famous quote by Voltaire. I'm sure you know which one I mean.

EDIT2: Though if it's really Voltaire I can't say: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/01/defend-say

 

[fresh_42]

But then again I insist this is irrelevant for the discussion

Sure. It was just a personal remark. I think it is important to know the cultural backgrounds if we try to understand people. That's why I liked the flags. There are, e.g., vast gaps even in the use of words between the USA and Europe. And knowing the Spanish history, it should be allowed to ask about this background. Maybe it's a German thing, because I grew up with the active confrontation of our own history. You cannot say that history isn't important to understand the present.

You are justifying carpet bombing as a response to terrorism.

I do not. I principally try to avoid comparing injustices because it looks like a justification. My argument was against the impression you created that, e.g., Spain would be immune to such a crime. It is not. I compared the dimensions to make it imaginable. Many genocides took place in the last century. That isn't that far away: Armenians, Tutsi, and quite a few in the wars after Yugoslavia broke down.

I attacked your seemingly higher morality since it is not justified in my opinion. And what ICE does to Latinos is comparable. I mean, who in the world would separate children and parents for a piece of paper?

You are justifying 90% "colateral damage" as a solution to terrorism in a "democratic".

Again: I do not justify it. I dare to mention that those who portray themselves as victims today were yesterday those who actually condoned mass murder. You portray them as innocent; they are not. That all doesn't justify every Israeli military action, but it puts it in context. You cannot have a party on the streets after more than 1,100 people have been abused, tortured, kidnapped, and slaughtered, including babies, and then plead "not guilty". It doesn't justify the war; it makes it understandable.

We are silent when a "democratic" power kills ... Silence kills.

I noticed my incorrect quotation, but I thought it would sum up the meaning of the section.

That's the real question, plus whether we may judge all people of a nation for tolerating such methods.

I think you are wrong here. We do have demonstrations against it, in the USA as well as in Israel. I only complain about Trump not being charged at the ICC, and if it were only for the signal. We are allowed to express that we do not agree. And here is where I really made a comparison: I haven't seen such protests against the crimes Hamas committed!

 

[sbrothy]

Sure. It was just a personal remark. I think it is important to know the cultural backgrounds if we try to understand people. That's why I liked the flags. There are, e.g., vast gaps even in the use of words between the USA and Europe. And knowing the Spanish history, it should be allowed to ask about this background. Maybe it's a German thing, because I grew up with the active confrontation of our own history. You cannot say that history isn't important to understand the present.



I do not. I principally try to avoid comparing injustices because it looks like a justification. My argument was against the impression you created that, e.g., Spain would be immune to such a crime. It is not. I compared the dimensions to make it imaginable. Many genocides took place in the last century. That isn't that far away: Armenians, Tutsi, and quite a few in the wars after Yugoslavia broke down.

I attacked your seemingly higher morality since it is not justified in my opinion. And what ICE does to Latinos is comparable. I mean, who in the world would separate children and parents for a piece of paper?



Again: I do not justify it. I dare to mention that those who portray themselves as victims today were yesterday those who actually condoned mass murder. You portray them as innocent; they are not. That all doesn't justify every Israeli military action, but it puts it in context. You cannot have a party on the streets after more than 1,100 people have been abused, tortured, kidnapped, and slaughtered, including babies, and then plead "not guilty". It doesn't justify the war; it makes it understandable.



I noticed my incorrect quotation, but I thought it would sum up the meaning of the section.

That's the real question, plus whether we may judge all people of a nation for tolerating such methods.

I think you are wrong here. We do have demonstrations against it, in the USA as well as in Israel. I only complain about Trump not being charged at the ICC, and if it were only for the signal. We are allowed to express that we do not agree. And here is where I really made a comparison: I haven't seen such protests against the crimes Hamas committed!

I agree that it's relevant to know where opinions originate but that was already pretty obvious in @Patxitxi 's case (EDIT2: Although now I think about it that he was Basque wasn't obvious, though hardly surprising.) . Some people hide where they're from and other details. One of the users on here (He knows who he is.) gave me good advice on reaching a working limit. I don't have much to hide though. A little perhaps, but not much.

EDIT: I'll read your post when I get home. I'm once again on this weird public computer....

 

[sbrothy]

Your username is quite irritating if you say ...



... as it sounds Basque to me.



ETA is responsible for approximately 800 deaths, many of them among the Guardia Civil who tortured prisoners. Now, imagine they had slaughtered 5,500 civilians in Zaragoza in a single event, including women, children, and had raped many and kidnapped around 500 of them. This is the dimension you have to compare it to. (When scaled to the population size, we have a scaling factor of approximately 5.)
_______________

@Borg, Maybe we could move all posts from #372 on into a separate thread, since they are somewhat off-topic discussions. Unfortunately, they are quite vivid and already around 40 posts, so they shouldn't be deleted. Also, they are on different topics, so they are hard to separate. My suggestion would therefore be a thread titled "European Political Landscape and History" in the "General Political Discussion" forum, but you may well find a better title.

[...] Unfortunately, they are quite vivid [...]

Yeah, we certainly can't have that! Let's get back to dry uninteresting politics!

EDIT: I'm guessing you mean in the sense that "they're high in chroma"....

 

[Patxitxi]

I must admit that you're right. Making fun of your name might be funny(?), but definitely irrelevant.

EDIT: You have an interesting family history compared to mine! At least what I know of it.

Don't worry I've taking the piss out of custom's officers for decades on account of my family name...
The dialog went on somthing like this:
What's your name? Francisco Español.
No, I know you're from Spain. I mean your name? Again (me now slower):
My name is Francisco Español.
(Custom officer now blowing air: Pfff... )
Me: Would you look again more catefully at my passport? I'm Spanish twice.
Officer: Ahhh...
So I have been exploiting my name for a long time.
AND nothing pisses a far right spaniard more that being told tgst I'm more Spanish than them.
When the start rumbling aggressively I only have to hand them my id card.
"Ahhh... What an honor having your name!"
See?

 

[Patxitxi]

Sure. It was just a personal remark. I think it is important to know the cultural backgrounds if we try to understand people. That's why I liked the flags. There are, e.g., vast gaps even in the use of words between the USA and Europe. And knowing the Spanish history, it should be allowed to ask about this background. Maybe it's a German thing, because I grew up with the active confrontation of our own history. You cannot say that history isn't important to understand the present.



I do not. I principally try to avoid comparing injustices because it looks like a justification. My argument was against the impression you created that, e.g., Spain would be immune to such a crime. It is not. I compared the dimensions to make it imaginable. Many genocides took place in the last century. That isn't that far away: Armenians, Tutsi, and quite a few in the wars after Yugoslavia broke down.

I attacked your seemingly higher morality since it is not justified in my opinion. And what ICE does to Latinos is comparable. I mean, who in the world would separate children and parents for a piece of paper?



Again: I do not justify it. I dare to mention that those who portray themselves as victims today were yesterday those who actually condoned mass murder. You portray them as innocent; they are not. That all doesn't justify every Israeli military action, but it puts it in context. You cannot have a party on the streets after more than 1,100 people have been abused, tortured, kidnapped, and slaughtered, including babies, and then plead "not guilty". It doesn't justify the war; it makes it understandable.



I noticed my incorrect quotation, but I thought it would sum up the meaning of the section.

That's the real question, plus whether we may judge all people of a nation for tolerating such methods.

I think you are wrong here. We do have demonstrations against it, in the USA as well as in Israel. I only complain about Trump not being charged at the ICC, and if it were only for the signal. We are allowed to express that we do not agree. And here is where I really made a comparison: I haven't seen such protests against the crimes Hamas committed!

I agree in most of your notes.
I also note you ignore the unbalance if the conflict reflected in the famous photo I attached.
And I have no problem revealing my background precisely on those grounds. Although any observer would note you have not provided yours.
On the other hand demonstrations are normal when you as a society only have rocks to defend yourself from thousands of previous killings fir decades (see below graph) and a few crazy wackos murderers finally gave a massive blow back.
Every single government has stated Hamas crimes are horrendous but do not justice genocide...
BTW talking about comparisons: bad tate demonstrations in Palestine deserve 75,000 killings but demonstration with attack and death in the US Capitol deserve a pardon?
I hope we can both agree both reactions are not very appropriate for a self labelled democratic state.

 

[Patxitxi]

Oof, talk about a can of worms. This should perhaps have it's own thread?

No more threads needed, we are still trying to come to terms with this and the hundreds of thousands of casualties of which many lying in spanish road curves, we are debating the uncovering and identifying of corpses...

Historic note from Wikipedia:
Franco's dictatorship resulted in a large number of victims, prisoners, and disappeared people from the Republican (left-wing) side during and after the Spanish Civil War.
The repression was extensive, with various estimates of those impacted:

• Disappeared: Estimates for victims of enforced disappearance (those executed and buried in unmarked mass graves) range from roughly 114,000 to over 140,000.
• Mass Graves: There are over 2,300 documented mass graves from the Civil War and Franco's repression, with many more in Andalusia alone.
• Political Prisoners: In the early 1940s, it is estimated that around 370,000 political prisoners were in Franco’s jails and concentration camps.
• Refugees: Roughly 500,000 people fled to France in 1939 to escape the dictatorship.
• Executions: Historians estimate roughly 100,000-200,000 people were murdered or executed by Nationalist forces during and after the war.

The regime often used forced labor and systematically, and often permanently, "removed" supporters of the Second Republic (1931-1936), leading to the current ongoing efforts to locate and identify victims.